I believe you intended to post in the other topic.
I could see that message being validly posted as on-topic in either of these discussions, as it broaches the intersection of them.
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Occam’s razor has joined the chat
Its fine if a general rule needs to be radified on the spot, and its fine to ban-then-figure-it-out over a couple days. But after a couple bans absolutely need to follow some kind of rubrick to avoid discrimination and picking favorites. Rules should be applied uniformly, with evidence of that rule being broken.
I think a rule that a user should be banned from a conversation if/when they make a bad-faith counterpoint (scarcasm, personal attack, etc) to an argument would help this situation. This means not only scarcasm, blatant staw man arguments, false dichotomies, etc without apology when corrected. And while sealioning/baiting is much harder to confirm, they do fall under near this; Moderators would have to use judgment on whether or not an argument was made in bad faith but I think that is within their jurisdiction to do.
I disagree with Jon. I have searched Matrix, Discord, and Discourse, and have read each message in context. I’m still looking for a bannable offence because disagreement alone dosn’t make him deserve a 6 week ban. If he does deserve a ban, the evidence should be presented.
If anyone stays banned for 6 weeks with no rule broken, then this truly is the beginning of the unraveling of the nix community.
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No, moderators should have discretion to moderate as human persons and not merely hot-blooded rule-applying algorithims. We don’t need to have a list of every possible bad word someone could say, we don’t need an exhaustive set of every possible misbehavior. The moderation team must act in the name of the common good, and be free to make judgement calls.
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But if JonRinger stays banned for 6cmonths with no rule broken,
Brief note because I think typos like these can quickly cause misunderstandings in heated debates like this: According to moderation/moderation-log.md at 2ebb1fa9267045db77d589b9ecac840e05f71463 · NixOS/moderation · GitHub, the ban is
“for 6 weeks (until 2024-06-10)”, not months.
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Would you allow that there are more subtle ways than these examples to be arguing in bad faith, or more generally to be disruptive or unwelcoming?
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You can indulge in pedantry all you want, but my criteria are pretty clear: if Jon Ringer stays banned (EDIT sloppy wording on my part, sorry: I meant if his ridiculous ban is not reverted ASAP, with apologies from and/or consequences for those who enacted and enabled it) and this request (or, I guess, an attemped victory lap) is satisfied, then this organization is irrepairably broken. That would make me very sad.
Further edit (slow mode, sorry!): this is not about political camps, not for me anyway. It’s about simple organizational hygiene and compartmentalization. The madness just needs to stop, which means the adults in the room must step in. Except so far I see no such adults.
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What we need to address right now is a structural problem in our organization, not anyone’s problem. Until then, there is no point directing these problems to any single person, especially just to show your anger.
Likewise, what we need is a resolution of disputes between all parties, rather than continuing to take sides. Does Jon Ringer take more power than cafkafk in this regard (now)? I would expect no. Still does cafkafk takes more power than Jon Ringer? Still no. So what’s the point of this decision?
Also Jon Ringer will not stay banned, as the moderation log states, he is banned for 6 weeks, and this decision has not be changed yet.
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I noticed earlier and it did give me a pause… as “instigator of the Anduril debacle” is put there as a positive highlight, apparently. Still, so far I haven’t seen enough to actively dispute the request (I haven’t been looking too much). I mean, I’m not convinced that these crises would be more dangerous if they had ability to push/merge.
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I read that as a dry way of getting out ahead of a potential objection… not a lot of people would be earnestly proud of a ‘debacle’.
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I don’t wish to defend Jon at all (personally I disagree with a lot of what he’s said), but using the fact that this person is using the fact that they caused this debacle as a badge of honour sounds like “willfully furthering the division in the community”.
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The purpose was to be upfront about it so that it wouldn’t seem as if I had hidden it in any way, same for my corporate ties. This is by no means a victory lap either, I can tell nixpkgs has slowed down, and I feel it is only reasonable I lend a hand.
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Here are my views on the moderation issue, maybe a bit off-topic, but I am not sure where else to post it.
I like the quote “justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done”. This is how you build trust. While it is impossible to write down every single possible situation, you do need some general guidelines to persuade others. Reading some of the threads, it makes me feel the moderation team is exhausted and treats some of the legitimate (IMO) requests for detailed moderation guideline as trolls and dismiss them. Some of the examples in rfc-evidence/rfc_evidences_experiences.md at master · nrdxp/rfc-evidence · GitHub does not inspire confidence either, especially when the author was banned subsequently without any justification (yet).
Another question I want to ask is about the approach of moderation. If the goal of moderation is to prevent conflict from escalating, I think it is generally sufficient to have temporary bans (several hours) and limited to a certain channel/post, and only have a broader ban when the individual tries to open another thread elsewhere to continue the conflict. Only when this cannot solve the issue, longer bans should be issued. I don’t quite understand the benefit of a prolonged ban across all the official communication channels, as this is just pushing the individual to unofficial channels where the moderation team cannot reach. This just punishment.
Seriously, how will a 6 weeks ban for someone who “willfully furthering the division in the community” fix the problem? Not saying his behavior does not warrant a ban (duration is up for debate), I just feel that the ban backfires terribly and impossible to work when there are alternative communication channels.
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All: this thread has dipped in and out of talking about the jonringer decision since before we issued our public statement on the subject, so some confusion is understandable. Let me clear this up right now:
We’ve said what we’re going to say publicly on the subject of jonringer. If you have further feedback for us, send a Discourse message to the moderators group. On that specific subject, do not post your opinions in this thread. Do not create a new thread to post your opinions. Do not jump onto Matrix with your opinions. Send your opinions to us or keep them to yourself.
We are making this rule because we have other things to deal with besides managing the debate about jonringer. Drafting and internally discussing the rather detailed public notice that we published took me, personally, two full volunteer working days, never mind the cost to the other moderators. Nevertheless, I will still volunteer even more of my time to clarify things with you further if you message me. But not if you make a public debate out of it for all the lookie-loos from Reddit to read up on. This isn’t a debate club, and our capacity to deal with brigadiers is not infinite.
As I have in other threads, I will hide any more posts here that attempt to revisit the jonringer decision. Any users who find this instruction difficult to follow may find it difficult to log in for the next day or so, depending on how obnoxious they want to be about it.
Edit: As frustrated as I am with the current rush of never-seen-you-befores here for internet points, I will add that, in the event we mods really get out of pocket and start abusing our power, and we issue instructions like the one above against talking about how we're abusing our power, I'd say that if you want to fix this, the thing to do is to find a trusted community member and privately communicate your concerns to them. Get some triangulation on your perspective. If we really lost it, there's enough power diffused throughout the community that we could be booted and replaced, if enough people talk to the right people and convince them that it's necessary. The fact that this would require having been here long enough to know who to talk to is a feature, not a bug.
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Also FWIW because this thread has my name in the title for some reason: I didn’t ask to be defended by anyone, I don’t think it’s particularly a bad decision from the mods to mute someone telling another contributor to fuck off (even gently). But I still absolutely stand by those words and will repeat them as many times as I have the opportunity to do so.
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This makes me think you’ve missed the point entirely. Did you read any of it?
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