# Improving diversity in this community
**URL:** https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547
**Category:** Meta
**Created:** [November 5, 2024, 5:19pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547 "2024-11-05T17:19:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@piegames](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/piegames)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2024, 5:19pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/1 "2024-11-05T17:19:48Z")
The [original thread](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nix-community-survey-2024-results-gender-distribution/55489) forked off the survey results discussion (as every year) is a train wreck (as every year). In the past, I’ve had good experiences with creating a discussion space exclusive to people who already agree on the general direction.
**Therefore, this discussion is exclusive to people who 1. agree that the NixOS has a problem with being sufficiently welcoming to a diverse set of contributors 2. understand why this is a problem and 3. agree that something should be done about it.** Any other posts will most likely be considered as off-topic for this discussion. Discussing personal negative experiences or experiences of discrimination is welcome too.
(I’m personally not super interested in participating in that discussion right now, but I want to give it a proper space to happen)
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### Author:  [@hexa](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/hexa)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2024, 7:23pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/2 "2024-11-05T19:23:11Z")
3 posts were merged into an existing topic: [Nix Community Survey 2024 Results: Gender distribution](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nix-community-survey-2024-results-gender-distribution/55489/64)
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### Author:  [@Infinisil](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/Infinisil)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2024, 9:06pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/6 "2024-11-05T21:06:28Z")
I’m not sure I agree with all the premises, but a diverse community is a definite plus in my books (and it [aligns with our values](https://nixos.org/values/#community-values-people)), so I’m supportive of initiatives to maintain and improve it regardless of the premises!
To that end, I’ve had a suggestion I’ve wanted to share for a while: I really like the [🏳️🌈 NixOS logo](https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-artwork/blob/ea1384e183f556a94df85c7aa1dcd411f5a69646/logo/nix-snowflake-rainbow.svg) you added earlier this year, I’d love to have it replace the usual logo on the website (and Discourse, etc.) throughout pride month (June). This is a just a small step, but it’s also fairly easy to implement 🙂
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### Author:  [@SergeK](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/SergeK)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/7 "2024-11-05T22:22:33Z")
Let’s start off where the previous thread should have started: “83% men” is a major slap in a face. That much is true regardless of one’s stance regarding DEI, governance, or moderation (my own values are… well, that’s irrelevant). Doing as bad as “the industry” does is not enough.
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### Author:  [@piegames](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/piegames)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2024, 8:26am UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/8 "2024-11-06T08:26:18Z")
That was the original plan, yes, however if unfortunately got under the bus because it was a busy time.
However, I find it important to acknowledge that simply waving a flag does not make a supportive community on its own. We need to put tangible actions behind our words.
As a start, I find it important to look into the reasons why a lot of (predominantly queer) people left the community. To actually listen. And when I do that, the #1 complaint I hear is that way too little is done against trolls, abusers and harassment.
Because @samueldr already mentioned RFC 175, I definitely remember how it was somehow kept open as if it was an RFC like any else, despite it containing a hateful manifesto against several community members. I also remember how known community members teamed up with banned ex-community members on r/NixOS, to harass people at the gates of our community. And stories like these abound, I just picked the first two that came to my mind for exemplary purposes.
These are the issues that need to be worked on.
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### Author:  [@rnhmjoj](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/rnhmjoj)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2024, 8:26am UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/9 "2024-11-06T08:26:47Z")
> 1. agree that the NixOS has a problem with being sufficiently welcoming to a diverse set of contributors
Do you think that is because our community spaces are somehow hostile towards these people or because the technology itself is unwelcoming (complex ecosystem, hard learning curve, little documentation)?
I think that before everyone tries to come up with the solution, it should be a good idea to try to understand why we are where we are.
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### Author:  [@uep](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/uep)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2024, 8:44am UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/10 "2024-11-06T08:44:05Z")
> [@rnhmjoj](#):
>
> (complex ecosystem, hard learning curve, little documentation)
These problems, though real, do not seem to me to be gender-specific in a primary way.
Where they do include or induce some gender bias will be because they compound with other issues not listed here, and we should identify and tackle those directly.
Those include hostility, but not only that.
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### Author:  [@joepie91](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/joepie91)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2024, 4:13pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/11 "2024-11-06T16:13:13Z")
I would say it is overwhelmingly the former; hostile community spaces.
That’s not to say that there aren’t complexity issues with the ecosystem and learning curve, but with a sufficiently welcoming and supportive community environment, those can be rapidly mitigated and improved. Whereas the other way around doesn’t work.
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### Author:  [@bmillwood](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/bmillwood)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/12 "2024-11-06T17:09:52Z")
I’m going to gather together the comments on outreachy from the other thread, because they’re a little too thinly spread for my liking, and it feels like a relatively concrete thing to think about:
@cafkafk suggests [https://www.outreachy.org/](https://www.outreachy.org/) (in [this comment](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nix-community-survey-2024-results-gender-distribution/55489/13)), which “[…] provides internships to people subject to systemic bias and impacted by underrepresentation in the technical industry where they are living”
@paperdigits [replies](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nix-community-survey-2024-results-gender-distribution/55489/31):
> [@@paperdigits](#):
>
> So it seems like to get into Outreachy, we need to apply to be in it when they open their applications again, have mentors available to help students thru the time, and define some projects we want people to work on. It nominally seems like the same things as GSoC, which is very doable. Am I missing something?"
@arianvp [agrees](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nix-community-survey-2024-results-gender-distribution/55489/34):
> [@](#):
>
> It can also be something like Outreachy. Most important part is finding mentors who are willing to do this kind of stuff. And I think the summer of nix project already had quite a list of mentors. I’m sure most of them would be interested in something like this.
(I think that community hostility and lack of moderation seems like a bigger / more urgent issue, though I haven’t been in this community long; this outreachy stuff doesn’t directly address that, but I thought it’d be useful to gather here anyway.)
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### Author:  [@paperdigits](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/paperdigits)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2024, 2:15am UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/13 "2024-11-07T02:15:35Z")
Seems like to get into Outreachy, [at least $8,000 would need to be secured for 1 intern](https://www.outreachy.org/docs/community/#intern-funding).
After the initial $8k, [we can apply for funding for more people via an Outreachy fund](https://www.outreachy.org/docs/community/#outreachy-general-fund).
Mentors would need to apply to the [Outreachy mentorship program](https://www.outreachy.org/communities/cfp/).
Currently its all closed with no mention of future dates. [If you want to know more about when things open back up, get on the mailing list](https://lists.outreachy.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/announce).
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### Author:  [@NobbZ](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/NobbZ)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2024, 6:31am UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/14 "2024-11-07T06:31:10Z")
In the beam community they do a survey asking the currently active women, what tracked them towards the beam and other related questions. ([Lorena Mireles Rivero on LinkedIn: #beam #woman #elixir #erlang #gleam](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/lorena-mireles-rivero_beam-woman-elixir-activity-7260104687775834112-M4--?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_android)) Perhaps someone can reach out to them?
Also for conferences there is usually a pool of “diversity” tickets on which members of underrepresented groups can apply.
Those diversity tickets come either for free or a discount.
Though in general the conference culture around the BEAM is completely different, therefore I am not sure if this can be easily transferred.
I am also trying to get my hands on some figures about how diverse the community is. The perceived diversity is bigger though. But last year’s surveys I was able to find don’t publish age and gender.
* * *
_edit_
I just got a reply from the issuer of the current survey. They do not have any data about age or gender.
For them it felt to exclusive to have a fixed number of replies, while a free form field would have been to much of work to “normalize” and you would never now if “wiman” was acutally a typo or a real gender identity.
I will still ask some poeple about some details of the diversity and inclusion program when I will meet them the next time, even though that will take a while and not happen before the new year.
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### Author:  [@ashkitten](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/ashkitten)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2024, 7:42pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/15 "2024-11-07T19:42:37Z")
For surveying about gender identity, I’d look at how Cassian does it over at [https://www.gendercensus.com/](https://www.gendercensus.com/).
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### Author:  [@arianvp](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/arianvp)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2024, 10:40am UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/16 "2024-11-08T10:40:16Z")
Coming to this thread for happy vibes. Gave up on the other one.
@Mic92 mentioned in the other thread.
> For next NixCon how about having a group of explicitly reaching to non-male community members to submit talks? This group would not necessarily decide which talks actually get accepted and I don’t think we need to boost these submissions in any way. From another conference (chaos-communication congress), I heard about statistics that these types submissions often are accepted over-proportionally and I believe their submission is anonymous (?) - needs fact checking.
I think this is a good idea that we should add to the NixCon runbook.
In general, it would be great if we had some form of committee that does outreach to women and non-male folks to come to conferences and events (and on top of that submit talks as well!). Also thinking of events like [https://oceansprint.org](https://oceansprint.org) and [https://thaigersprint.org](https://thaigersprint.org) that are more aimed at just hacking than giving talks.
I’m happy to put energy into these kind of things. Similarly mentorship is something I enjoy doing.
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### Author:  [@NobbZ](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/NobbZ)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/17 "2024-11-08T14:30:30Z")
> [@arianvp](#):
>
> women and non-male folks
Can we agree on “underrepresented groups”? There are more minorities than only the usual gender bucket.
Inclusion and diversity does not only mean “women” and “non-binary”. It even goes beyond “straight, bi, homosexual” (and other nuances).
It also means to have folks from areas in the world that usually are lesser involved in tech. disabilities might as well suite this “underepresented group” scheme. And there is probably more, that we are not yet aware of, simply because everyone is focusing on sex, gender and related identities.
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### Author:  [@Atemu](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/Atemu)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/18 "2024-11-08T16:06:15Z")
I think those are rather different issues to solve; one is mostly caused by toxic masculinity and the other by wealth imbalance or other detracting factors of their environment.
Solutions for one issue will likely have little effect on the other. For instance, throwing money at women won’t make them want to hang out in toxic communities and being nice to chronically poor people won’t make them more able to afford to be part of this community.
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### Author:  [@bmillwood](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/bmillwood)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2024, 4:41pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/19 "2024-11-08T16:41:07Z")
The issues are not identical but there is at least some overlap in strategies to solve them. Specifically looking at the intervention of “try to foster more participation from underrepresented groups, so that they’re more able to get their foot in the door and can more easily get their self-advocacy heard” works pretty well on any group, I think, so it does seem better to me to make that initiative be broader than just gender.
That said, if someone says “I have a strategy to make the Nix community more welcoming to women, in a way that won’t really translate to other groups, but it’s what I’m most knowledgeable / passionate about”, I’m not going to stand in their way. In a case like that we should be honest with ourselves (and others) about where we’re doing a good job and where we aren’t, but better to do it somewhere than nowhere.
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### Author:  [@paperdigits](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/paperdigits)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/20 "2024-11-08T16:53:51Z")
Can we please somehow avoid bikeshedding about “who the minorities are and what we’re going to call them”? I know its difficult, but there are some actual constructive things to do already listed in this thread lets not derail ourselves.
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### Author:  [@SergeK](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/SergeK)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2024, 2:23am UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/21 "2024-11-09T02:23:52Z")
> [@paperdigits](#):
>
> Seems like to get into Outreachy, [at least $8,000 would need to be secured for 1 intern](https://www.outreachy.org/docs/community/#intern-funding).
So we get the SC to take $8k from the Foundation’s money and then Outreachy helps find an intern and possibly funds more interns?
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### Author:  [@paperdigits](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/paperdigits)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2024, 4:19am UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/22 "2024-11-09T04:19:22Z")
From my understanding,
1. We have at least $8k for one person’s salary
2. We can apply (and if approved) Outreachy will fund more
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### Author:  [@uep](https://discourse.nixos.org/u/uep)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547/24 "2024-11-09T04:33:48Z")
Almost certainly: elsewhere, having been driven away before ever getting involved enough to even consider it.
That’s just the statistical reality of the past and recent situation: the people we will never know that could have made great contributions.
And, of course, all the reason in the world to improve the situation.
[Next page](https://discourse.nixos.org/t/improving-diversity-in-this-community/55547.md?page=2)