True, and I agree, nor did I intend to imply it wasn’t the case. We have precedent that shows this is most likely accurate.
I disagree.
Having the commit bit is a signal.
A signal of the trust that the organization puts in a person. That the person can be trusted to be worked with.
This trust had, in my opinion, been overstepped, at least on the short term, by the immediate behaviour.
In a lot of threads, it at least appeared acceptable to tell me to “fuck off”, go elsewhere, or other colorful of saying you’re not welcome. If I did anything remotely similar, I would have been booted significantly faster. Why weren’t some individuals’ behaviors addressed? I don’t know, to the defense of the moderators, you’ll never be fast enough, and the escalation likely already happened when you “arrive on scene”. But it does feel like a double standard when personal attacks aren’t really addressed, upvoted, and seemingly condoned.
Certain posts seem to find themselves missing, like my response to raito - current page. It’s not crazy to see a pattern of behavior, jump to a conclusion (e.g. being silenced/erased/canceled), and see the confirmation bias you want to see.
Well, r/nixos seems pretty tired of all the drama, so it seems to be resolving itself. My post from yesterday was essentially people telling me that I was out-of-line, and the feedback was a contributing factor to me editing my commit request post.
Bringing in actions on external platforms would be a slippery slope, people have posted a lot of hate. Not to mention it encourages people to dig through people’s history to find dirt on them.
My commit bit request just initially stated that I disagreed with the circumstances in which my commit bit was removed. And was more aimed at the “reason for jonringer being suspended” letter (my first time doing so in written form on a NixOS platform) than extrapolating to any type of FUD. I’ll agree that my reddit post was definitely me giving into FUD, after having 4+ people post that I shouldn’t have the commit bit restored and a downvote brigade on my application.
There’s a lot of people who have dirtied their hands since NixCon EU. It will be hard to find someone who hasn’t thrown a stone.
The people acting in disruptive manner, who when confronted state it’s being done about their world view.
My personal stance has always been some variation of:
These can mean very different things, depending on who you ask to interpret it. Which I think is at the heart of a lot of this miscommunication.
I’m sorry you feel that way, I quite enjoyed working with you. I’ll reserve my right that I’m misunderstood, and in a face to face scenario that we can come to some mutual understanding. Easy to write-off people through text: empathy, compassion, and sincerity have a hard time being conveyed. Especially in this polarized landscape.
The lean on contributions was meant more as a way to show that I’m not some troll or some bad actor. Why would I spend thousands of hours of my life improving nix just to make a social jab? no one would.
Prior to my suspension, I really wanted to be seen as a peer, who may not agree with the way raito and hexa were trying to create a selection sponsorship committee (and it’s implications in community decision making), and I would prefer to have something like an unambiguous policy which could have predictable results in the future. Now I’m fine with just going back to GitHub - NixOS/nixpkgs: Nix Packages collection & NixOS and grinding away again.
That’s a bit into the victim blaming territory. There was no way to know the magnitude of response, do you think I want to be in this position? No. My happiest time in Nix was pre-RFC98, before any conception of Nix being anything but a “space for hackers, scratching their own itches”.
Exactly this, you’re not attacking my person (other than the insinuation of me being a “bad part” which needs to be cut off). But you seem to be sincere about your viewpoint, and I appreciate the criticism. At the very least it’s some meaningful insight as to why there’s so much “hate” thrown my way.
Hi srid!
The commit bit could have also been quietly added back when I was added to the organization, instead I had to manually poke around to ask for it, then asked to make a public appeal for the commit bit back. Creating the preconditions for this thread now.
I would argue that all of the publicity was unneeded, and AFAICT, this is the first precedent of a committer being suspended. So there wasn’t an “already established paradigm” to follow as you’re insinuating. As to why I made the long elaborate history of my contributions? That’s what the template roughly equate to: intro, reason for wanting to be a committer, some prose about your contributions, and a stats section on some quantity of contributions.
I don’t see an issue with me being proud of my contributions, everyone should be proud of the work they do. If you’re referring to my additional commentary about my suspension, yea; and many other people, including reddit, agreed it was over the line. I subsequently removed it.
For me, there still hasn’t really been any “closure” around my suspension. There was no one-on-one moderation discussion, no outreach from a foundation member, no pre-action letter of “this is where you’re behavior is unacceptable”. Just a condescending tone of, “take this time to reflect on your actions”, here’s a very long letter two days AFTER your suspension with the some reasons.
I do see the fallout. I didn’t want any of this to happen. I didn’t:
Fixating on me, and taking turns just prompts me to respond, which further sinks everyone’s time investment.
Going to step away from this discussion, as I don’t think it’s a productive use of anyone’s time; and re-litigation will likely be the only consequence with further discussion.
EDIT: grammar
mod hat on.
Lots of points were made, and I think there is a consensus to try to disengage.
I’m not saying this is solved, but this has been very heated for 12h, so the least I can do now is increasing the cooldown.
We’re still working for a way out.
I know of only one case where you were told to “fuck off” on official platforms. And in that specific case, the person saying so was muted for it by moderation. And to be fair, the person telling you to “fuck off” only did so after lots of provocation on your part and most of the people in the room being fed up with your behavior. I do not want to protect such behavior, but you have to understand that if you put too much pressure on something, it will snap.
Oh, btw: samueldr's AP stuff seems relevant to this discussion 
I just want to point out that you have an easy way out, finally do the thing that should have been done months ago. Perma-ban the person wasting countless hours of maintainer time.
I’m considering walking away from the project altogether, not because of the reinstatement of his commit bit but because we haven’t banned him again. The behaviour demonstrated yesterday shows he has learned absolutely nothing this time around, that the extensive reasoning given to the original ban still applies in its entirety, and that he is poised to drive away another several existing and new contributors if we do not do anything.
This entire affair has wasted hundreds [1] of hours of contributors’ time that could have been spent doing literally anything useful, instead of “balanced moderation” so that “everyone has their view heard”. It is like letting your neighbour’s pet tiger eat your rabbit and leave 5lb of excrement on your porch every day while you have to hold your nose and not say anything to “protect their freedom to have exotic pets”. If I were working on a project that wants to get things done, I would have banned Jon and all of his sympathizers months ago [oh wait, I do. and we banned him months ago!]. At this point it’s not even remotely about politics but simple wasted resources.
In light of this, I will tender my resignation from the project if he is not re-banned with prejudice in the next week, because it appears that the priorities of NixOS are first and foremost that anyone should be allowed to waste our time and energy without consequence to “protect their 
”. Every minute that I spend on NixOS could be spent on a fork that actually cares about getting things done instead of forming committees for the protection and preservation of the committee for preservation and protection of the status quo.
Inaction on patterns of behaviour that are this long running and well documented to “protect freeze peach” is not protecting anyone’s speech but wasting everyone’s time.
There’s a clear point where someone drives away more contributions than they do themselves and I think that line has been clearly and shamefully crossed through the actions demonstrated in the past few months. Burning out the entire previous mod team is reason enough for permanent banning.
Jon: I beg you to try to see how your patterns of behaviour over a period of years are not conducive to working in a team based project. Try to understand why people are opposed to you being in positions of power. Hint: it’s not your politics, I promise. It’s not a witch hunt either. It’s the actions you have taken, the repeatedly doing the same thing in the hopes that nobody has a backbone and will just roll over, the intentionally starting drama in out-of-community places [2], the playing the victim the whole time instead of thinking even a little bit about why people find your behaviour unacceptable.
Personally I think we have given you too many chances to do this already, but I nevertheless am asking you as an individual to try to learn from this experience even if the final outcome is that you are banned permanently.
[1]: Low estimate. thousands, if we count the time wasted on the status quo enthusiasm committee on zulip whose creation was significantly spurred by Jon and company.
[2]: For example: The posts on /r/nixos from above. Incidentally, Srid (who has been banned for extremely good reasons) is having a great time brigading community spaces from his little unmoderated playground, /r/nixos. I must note: /r/nixos is a moderation free zone due to the inactions of @domenkozar, the only even remotely active moderator on there. This, too, is shameful as a community, and should not be without direct personal (edit for clarity: potential moderation/social) consequence on Domen for the masses of wasted time and burnout that platforming Srid and company there has on the moderation team here, IMO.
Do you all really believe that threatening to leave is a valid excuse to ban a long standing contributor? Why do you even have this attitude. Do you really believe in an open-source project as large as nixpkgs, that it is even possible to be socio-political aligned enough with every contributor to simultaneously keep pace of development while banning anyone who doesn’t fall into your tiny (likely ideosyncractically defined) cliche?
This is really what’s best for the project eh? Really?
I don’t respond seriously to abdication of resposibility as an adult with personal agency. Nobody “had” to waste time on this, it was a personal choice. That personal choice is not Jon’s responsibility, and therefore, he is not culpable in any way for it.
Hi, I haven’t read this thread and I don’t really care to read all of it.
I’ve always intended to get back into the Nix community after the issues with community management are sorted to my satisfaction.
If jonrigner gets his commit bit back, I’m gonna be gone for good.
Create whatever future you want to live in.
Be well,
Xe
EDIT: Looks like his commit bit got back anyways.
I hope you all enjoy the future you have created.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
Since this is a personal attack and threatening, I’m going to respond here.
I’ve spend a lot of time contacting the original admins to get moderation permission because there was serious abuse happening back then because there was literally no moderators on /r/NixOS and I wanted to make sure direct threats are not happening.
I hope moderation team takes action here, but I can’t possibly be blamed for things I didn’t do because I’m running a company and have no time for children’s games.
its grim in here, lots of name calling and dog piling. this should be closed. nothing productive is happening.
I think this will be the last chance you will be given on this platform before a permanent ban, Jon. I say this as an outsider who has read many threads about your “suspension.” It is better for the community, the project, and even you if you don’t participate much in any non-technical or meta discussions.
I think the reason for your initial ban was pretty vague as well, and the Reddit post being created in anticipation of backlash seems like a wrong move. You walked back the things on the GitHub issue and admitted to this.
I don’t see any point in continuing this conversation now that the commit rights have been given. A few people have taken a strong stand on putting your reinstatement over the project itself and are willing to die on that hill.
The comment made by someone about permanently banning you and your “sympathizers” to get any work done, I assume, is an exaggeration. If permanent banning is taken this lightly, it is a clear abuse of power.
I, too, agree that this thread should be locked to stop the drama. I hope the best for you, Jon, in your technical contributions and plead with others not to engage in any likely future drama unless it is paramount to the survival of the project, for your own mental sanity.
PS: And I would personally de-unlist this thread after locking it, it serves as any future proof/evidence for all sides.
The topic was unlisted 15 hours ago and still received another 20 replies of heated discussion. Maybe you should just lock it? The only people who are going to reply are people who have already said their piece and randos linked in from various online peanut galleries. I don’t know what kind of productive discussion you expect to happen here that merits leaving it open.
It literally, factually, was deemed not acceptable, since the person in question was delivered moderation action — and immediately, I might add, without prior deliberation, which is far more decisive than any actions taken against you so far. So you saying this is at best misinformation and at worst just a flat out lie, and you’ve already lied in this thread.
Nice distraction tactic; that’s a whataboutism, not a response to what @samueldr actually said.
Non-apology apology - Wikipedia. The thing is, it doesn’t matter if we’re all misunderstanding you or not: you’re making things worse, and we want you to stop. If someone is earnestly trying, but still being an asshole despite their best efforts, they still need to stop being an asshole. When they step back, and stop being an asshole, then they can have a heart to heart.
I’m sure you don’t want to be in this position, and I don’t envy it either, but by your own admission you understood there would be backlash from your public post. It is not victim blaming to say you need to suffer the consequences of your own actions.
All of this being said, Jon, there is an aspect here which has been unfair to you: @domenkozar’s irresponsibility in directing you to make that post without communicating to the moderation team or other members of Nixpkgs governance first is not on you.
i admit that this
versus this
and this
really makes me think. i’ve seen this specific set of circumstances occur more than once in the last few months, so i’d like to explore it because this sort of thing is intellectually interesting to my brain worms.
in that thread (a new one linking here just made it back to the subreddit courtesy of a new friend in /r/nixos with zero other contributions on reddit, cool!) you spend most of the time dismissing anything against you in an attempt to - once again - reframe the conversation in a way that fills me with second-hand embarrassment. i won’t copy anything further from the (public) reddit thread, as i don’t want to be accused of “doxing”.
to be honest the fact you repeatedly and deliberately act in this manner with your full name and face is extremely intriguing. not suggesting that this affair be conducted behind a 'nym, but i can’t tell if it’s cultural differences between my country and yours or if this is a genuine argument form that i’ve just never seen before - a microcosm of social interaction where tools more precise than a jackhammer were never discovered.
either way, this particular flavour is extremely difficult to view in good faith: running around to try and take advantage of fractal decision making is 1) really obvious to the people paying attention, and 2) something that has a surprisingly long social tail.
we haven’t interacted directly at all, mostly due to a pretty big timezone difference. i’d like to take this opportunity to do so to inform you - as nothing but constructive criticism - that just reading how you argue these points is exhausting and no matter how many times i’ve tried to give the benefit of the doubt, it is extremely indicative that the intention is to suck all the oxygen out of any and all argument until there’s only one person standing. every single comment gets its own reply from you, almost every time. always there; it’s like watching a runescape botter. you’re turning yourself into a nix-centric public figure but you’re not liking it.
unlike violations of sparkling silicon, you cannot simply turn a community off and on again. social harms take time to heal, and forcing the point doesn’t stem any bleeding.
–
no matter which side of this discussion you’re on, the fact that you suggest a volunteer who is freely providing their time to janitor the stained walls that is reddit should face consequences for not doing enough for free is simply broken. i don’t have another descriptor for it. it’s just broken. /r/nixos was never an official space. it does not and has never represented nix, the nix foundation, or even the nix userbase beyond a select few power-posters and neofetch enthusiasts.
@domenkozar i hope you know that this is categorically not a common sentiment. thank you for stepping up and volunteering your time and patience.
–
i’ve watched 30-odd friends walk away from nix over the last few months; many of them helped me learn it, and now i’m writing a screed in my lunch break in an attempt to save the sanity of the remaining few still in the community. unlike myself, many of my friends are part of one or more groups commonly marginalised by society, and some of them have exited the community because they don’t feel socially safe.
so like xe, this will be my final “contribution” (of which i unfortunately only got in a few publicly before everything exploded). i have far too many other things to do and just reading this go around and around makes me too tired to bother.
gg. be well.
I’d like to bring up an unrelated example of a committer who lost access for unrelated reasons, not to shame them in any way, but simply for comparison. A while ago, Sandro lost their commit bit. Passion and technical contributions notwithstanding, at the time, it was apparent that the manner of interactions was directly discouraging contributions - hence the moderation action. Regardless of anyone else’s opinion whether this specific action was necessary, moderation recognised the need of valuing new contributions, and took the action they found most effective. Months later, as you can see from the comments, Sandro slowly rebuilt the trust with the community and reapplied.
I would call this a success story both in terms of moderation as well as how both Sandro and the community have grown in response. It was an indefinite loss of privileges, even if not permanent, and forced self-reflection. And I would say, as an observer, the overall interactions have improved as a result.
Unfortunately, Jon was not forced to do the same self-reflection. A simple time-out, without having stipulations for privileges to be restored, is to simply allow this public temper tantrum to continue.
Well, driving away contributors is something he’s culpable for. I’ve frankly never seen a contributor as intentionally and successfully disruptive as him. And those who actually have the community’s interests at heart have spent their time to step in to (attempt to) prevent this community from devolving further. I’d not dismiss that as “personal choice”. There’s simply no validity for one singular person to act in bad faith just because they contributed technically in the past, no matter how prolifically.
And seeing as how other situations where contributors were driven off by committers were handled, I am surprised to see Jon getting handled with “kid gloves” instead of setting clear requirements before getting commit bit back.
I’m disappointed that things still seem to be a trash fire. jonringer has been shit stirring. Whether that’s intentional or not doesn’t matter, the impact does matter.
Reinstating permissions and keeping this mess going for longer is a poor decision and reflects poorly on the nix community.
This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.
Jon. You are a master at distorting the words I wrote for your own use.
Everything I wrote is about your constant behaviour of reshaping the discourse into FUD around you and a conspiracy. And yet you reshape the discourse around a conspiracy about you. There is no conspiracy other than the one you made.
No. It would be if you were a victim. You are building up a conspiracy [made your bed] and you have to live with the consequences [lie in it].
Also note how I wrote lie with emphasis. Yes. Think about the word I wrote.
I can tell you 100% of everything you are being a petulant child about is literally from your own doing.
You are well past the professional platitudes and sympathies. You are a stain. Everything you made makes the people want you to shut up. It’s not silencing. It’s self-respect and self-moderation.
Apparently to you it doesn’t mean you should be accountable to your actions. Because THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT IS BEING DONE HERE. And yet you are fighting back AGAINST YOUR PERSONAL STANCE.
Seriously, since there is literally no moderation feedback other than silencing the discussion, and have not been banned already either, I’ll make it simple. I am quitting. I understand I am not wanted. This is beyond ridiculous. The literal days lost dealing with you and your posse has been a serious detriment to my health, and sanity.
you did it! 
The fact that the moderation action is currently protecting your crass and hostile behaviour i̴̢̋s̵̜͊ ̴̖̐t̸͔̓h̷̭́e̶̛̤ ̷̦̕ç̵̇h̵̻͌ḛ̸͆r̷̥̓r̷̯̓ÿ̶̬́ ̸̵̧̯̥̳̅̿̽͠o̷̞̺͛̈́́ǹ̵͉̐̋ ̵̹͕̽̔̆t̴̮͎͐̿ḩ̷̦͑ë̴͚́ ̸̟̩͆̏s̸̲̮̈́̚u̶̥̩͉͠ń̴̨̜͜ḍ̶̀̅a̷̛̙̒͜ē̶̶̡̛͙̤̮̩̤͔̄́̾̄͝ä̸͈̹͈͙̩̦́̋͂̚n̸̟̈́̽̄͝d̸̻̲͙͇̤̲̜́̃̇ ̵͉̱̘̣͖͗̃̌͝ỉ̶̙̺͎͖̖͛̄̉͠ͅs̴̹̞̱̰͌̀ͅ ̷̞̿̾̚ẉ̴͇̦͇̀h̴̢̛͔͍̫̮̎̾̈͑̇͘a̵̜̝͙̝̰͗͌̚ṯ̶̑́̈́̀͒̌̐ ̸̢̰̯̓̔̒m̵̲̪͇̙͐̏ͅă̷̖̦͓̎̀͋͋̿͛d̵̢͉̜̩͑̀̀e̷̡̛͓͍̦͈͐͜͜͠ ̷̢͔̟̙̓͑͒̂͛̈́m̴̛͎̺̳̥e̴̝̭̺̤͉͈̠̚͝ ̶̙͈̑̀̓͑́͝ş̸̞͕̱̙͐͜n̵͓̼̞͙͓͚͔͋̎̿̀̿a̸̧̺̳̘͎̍́͒͗͠p̷̄̈̈́͜͝.̵̘̹͍̏͂ͅ
And yes, I’m burning off my good will by abusing the quirks of how Discourse does self-moderation 
deal with it.
You got this backwards. People are leaving because of Jonringer and the incapacity of the moderation team to properly act upon his behavior, and stating such. And “long standing contributor” should not mean “above all rules”. (And also this ignoring that many people leaving right now are "long standing contributor"s as well).
This “attitude” is one of “I don’t want to spend my free time on a project where highly involved people are actively lowering my mood for preventable reasons and nobody does anything against them”.
This is not about “socio-political alignment”, despite some people trying to frame this in such a context, this is about individual behavior.
I think enough damage has been done today. It would be foolish to let anyone continue at this point.
