Anduril's threat is existential

Claiming something “is existential” is quite a bold statement at first glance. Without qualifiers or caveats, this can be interpreted to mean either something quite trivial or extremely serious, or somewhere in-between. So what is the next step of the line of reasoning? Does this claim then justify breaking certain social contracts? Which ones? How far down the escalation options does this go? (in no particular order)

  • … and thus we should vote a certain way for the SC
  • … and thus I am comfortable committing CoC violations prevent the threat
  • … and thus i will encourage others to be willing to violate the CoC
  • … and thus I am willing to ignore our Values
  • … and thus I am willing to undermine the institutions of the Board, NCA, and SC
  • … and thus one may justify illegal activity
  • … and thus violence is justified to avert catastrophe
  • … and thus any system participanting in this activity is a valid target of abuse
  • … and thus it is okay to be rude

To ask in other ways; how confident are you in those causal links? What are the confounding factors? Where might the net-benefit/net-cost be unclear? What are the limits of this claim? What are the risks posed by the breaking of the social contract itself?

Otherwise, this might just be sensationalism. Please clarify the claim.

(Note: I’ll ask that anyone else not responding to my question about this to refrain from adding more noise until an answer is provided.)

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I hope discussing things may help reach a common understanding, and support our democratic process, which I’ve discussed to help shape from its inception.

On the claims, the second for one involves quite some uncertainty. The seventh seems slightly mixed bag as well, in that while some interventions may have been more blunt, others may have simply settled for diplomacy, for example. Overall I subscribe to the claims though, and tried to prioritize sources I would consider reputable.

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As far as I can tell from reputable news sources, Anduril munitions are primarily deployed in Ukraine. So if “people close to you” are being murdered, does that mean you are a soldier of Vladimir Putin’s fascist regime, or what did you mean by this? What makes you think you have the right to impose such views on the Nix OS community at large?

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You are a war criminal who wants to get away with it and this constant deflection comes with it

This is… hyperbolic… to say the least. You can’t be taken seriously.

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As far as I can tell from reputable news sources

But apparently not from Anduril itself. Try harder next time and maybe you can actually force yourself to empathize with minorities (migrants are not people you care about, evidently).

Based on what? Give me an actual argument or don’t speak up. Actually engage with the subject matter instead of tone policing. Do you think working and assisting Anduril as a senior level technical position is not grounds for assuming the worst given all the horrifying details laid out here? Or the fact that tomberek has admitted to being a hiring manager on his SC candidacy so he can recruit more people into Anduril from the community?[1]


  1. SC-election-2025/candidates/tomberek.md at 54e9db83059e20a6fe97671a8ed0f74bd23b041e · NixOS/SC-election-2025 · GitHub ↩︎

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According to primary sources the Altius drone series is used in the Ukrainian conflict, and Anduril is in partnership with the greater Ukrainian-European defense industry:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/anduril-rheinmetall-partner-build-military-drones-europe-2025-06-18/

Do you have a problem with these anti fascist actions? On the other hand, the “Autonomous Surveillance Tower” you refer to does not have any offensive capabilities. It seems that any claims of “murder” on your part are clearly hyperbolic at best.

You say I don’t have empathy? How about yours for the people years into a genocidal invasion by Russia right now? The world is not as black and white as you see it.

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:nerd_face:

Stop making up claims to justify your position and then going into a non-sequitur about something I never even brought up and then using that to invalidate people’s concerns.

This is just the abuser rhetorical strategy you’re applying in service of Anduril, deflect from the harm you’ve caused by loudly proclaiming that you’ve done something good so that you can divert the conversation away from the original subject matter that made you look bad.

edit: This is not too dissimilar to the tomberek strategy of begging the question enough times and centering yourself as the primary victim such that people are made to forget what the original issue was and you get to make everything out to be a witchhunt against you for “petty reasons”

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Forgive me that I don’t take your concern trolling about imaginary violence too seriously in the face of an actual threat to my continued existence.

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While organizing my thoughts, I was looking for the “Anduril tweet” someone mentioned when I arrived at this thread.

There are very clear, unworkable logical problems with the arguments that are being extremely unfair to many people in the discussion:

  • Moral blackmail – Those opposed to MIC are framing the issue as either opposition to Anduril participating in Nix or else being in favor of the consequences of war. Attempting to call out “dominant war hawk rhetoric” are very clear examples of this kind of blackmail.
  • Oversimplification – Moral blackmail depends on alternative choices being morally indefensible, and improper reduction of the problem until only such choices remain is a frequent way of falling into the erroneously constructed blackmail.
  • Token Gestures – I’ve stated this before. Nothing that can be accomplished through NixOS will materially affect the problems being fixated upon. Not climate change, not Gaza, not US politics, and not Anduril’s continued existence or progress at weaponizing AI. If it has no effect, what are we being asked to do?

Russia builds weapons for Russian dominance. Europe now re-arms as the nature of fast-evolving drone warfare demands that dozens of European and Ukrainian weapons developers use AI and drones in whatever combinations possible in a race to stop a wave of non-hypothetical war in Ukraine by empowering the Ukrainian people to reject Russian dominance and force Russia into negotiating a peace. To fixate on US weapons and one single US weapons developer is quite the oversimplification of the world we live in.

If you ask my honest opinion, which is an estimation but my strongest belief, based on the overwhelming interest alignment, opposition to Israel’s brutal actions in Gaza and the politically adjacent opposition to the US MIC were quite useful in the creation of the current political situation in the US, which if nothing else, absolutely worked in the favor of the re-election of Trump and his favorable policies gifted to Putin. Protests against the Gaza war have oddly sought to be active within the democratic party with a similarly counter-productive message of disruption we are seeing within NixOS. I consider NixOS to be a spillover of larger, broader, more pernicious online influence campaign aimed at driving US politics by shaping online discourse in the direction of these counter-productive political tactics and deeply flawed arguments, which are very effective in driving unworkable divisions that favor authoritarianism by making alternatives look hopelessly chaotic and unreasonable.

Guilt by Association

Those anxious of the US should note that US citizens involved in NixOS bias similarly to open source enthusiasts elsewhere, usually liberal or libertarian, but certainly not authoritarian. When speaking of increasing European digital sovereignty and such, if you have a problem with the US in general, venting that frustration against US citizens in the NixOS community is essentially venting at your best allies. It is just another example of completely counter-productive behavior and disconnect with how to achieve real results.

Climate Change is Very Financial

Free-market enterprise is only as good as the financial instruments we have invented. Before seashells (currency), it was difficult to connect value at long distances and with great separations in time. Stocks, bonds, derivatives, and so many other instruments enable us to connect supply and demand at longer ranges, directing demand for that future value (or avoidance of destruction) with the capital necessary to make it happen. Climate change is a very long range, very broad kind of cost, so it is quite likely that we have simply not innovated the tools to financialize its avoidance. Among its solutions, any technology that is more competitive and does not use carbon can completely sidestep the issue, as wind and solar electrical generation are poised to do. I didn’t look at the energy ROI, but hydrogen based steel refining is another such possibility. Alternative means of creating plastic and concrete analogs are perhaps on the other end of AI technologies currently being propelled by capital that Anduril and others are pouring into the general set of problems.

In closing, the problems are so complex. The effect of excluding Anduril from NixOS can have such a fleeting impact if any. Immense harm is being created upon the NixOS community and what we could be accelerating elsewhere in open source and the governance of open organizations. Please, have the courage to analyze and more deeply consider broader perspectives.

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Do you even know what war crimes imply? What it takes to be categorized as a war criminal, by people that know what they are talking about? It is a very, very serious accusation. You seem mostly to be using it as a “terrible word”. No, if YOU accuse someone if being it a war criminal the evidence is on YOU. And since you will not be able to put forward any credible evidence for this, you are not to be taken seriously. I will not engage with you any further.

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You are a war criminal

  • … and thus I am comfortable committing CoC violations to prevent the threat (note the section about personal attacks)

everyone else who calls them out is coordinating an effort to depose them

  • … and thus i will encourage others to be willing to violate the CoC

Can you start speaking to us on our level and stop trying to act smart and level-headed.

  • … and thus I am willing to ignore our Values

They should stay in the issue tracker and not attempt to wrestle control of the community’s image

  • … and thus I am willing to undermine the institutions of the Board, NCA, and SC

Please let the Discourse know if you come up with any others; you could have stopped here:

  • … and thus we should vote a certain way for the SC

You simply can rank the people you don’t want to vote for last on your ballot instead of making a slew of posts, a meme, and a variety of personal attacks across 3 threads including a multiday necrobump… perhaps with a level-headed explanation of why others should vote similarly.

That’s the power of convincing others to influence democracy in action: you can use our existing social contracts (notably, voting power while following the Code of Conduct and treating others with respect per the Values) to effect the change you’d like.

Instead, you don’t seem to be making any attempt to play nicely or even remotely within the rules.

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I mean, isn’t this the entire premise of Anduril and other military companies? If you don’t believe violence is justified to avert catastrophe then why are you working for Anduril?

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The purpose of many weapons, such as nuclear missiles, is one of deterrence, reducing the risk-averaged reward of all moves in the game theory until only unfavorable outcomes remain.

But really I want to point out that your comment comes of as a short-sighted innuendo rather than an argument pointed at some conclusion. What would you like to imply? Why not just tell Tom exactly that? This kind of discussion can’t advance things. At best, it is easy to read and click the heart. It’s not a serious comment designed to convince anyone of anything.

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The comment strikes at the heart of the hypocrisy at play here.

We have a person demanding civility and politeness who also chose to work for a company founded and lead by a man that thinks Trump and his authoritarianism are the ideal to strive for and who’s company publicly emulates Trump’s style of communication.

Luckey thought that after building VR headsets the most sensible step forward was to build weapons. Yes, surveillance towers built with the purpose of targeting the poor are also weapons. So are his drones.

Since the last Trump election and the unparalleled destruction of “civility”, “politeness” and fundamental norms enacted through him, I’ve seen no sign of any change of heart on Luckey’s or Anduril’s part.

Tom chose to work for this man. He intends to hire for him, to help him build better weapons and to further his political goals. All of this long after any doubt on what he and his company stand for politically have been removed.

Yes, we sadly need weapons. For that, we are relying on weapons companies. Most of them with an often unbroken history of producing weapons for oppressive regimes and lead by people advocating for an increase in oppression in their own and other nations.

I think it’s the defenders of these companies that engage in black-and-white thinking when they paint their critics as hopelessly naive “peace lovers”; people who just don’t get the realities of the world and thus foolishly criticize the benevolent arms companies defending us from the worst.

I’d personally like living in a world with no need for weapons, but the next best thing would getting our weapons from the least fascist weapons company possible and striving to reduce their - ahem - political influence.

It’s a perfectly valid position to both understand the need for weapons and to not want to support a weapons company extending its influence within a particular open source community one participates in.

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As a Russian citizen, I’m not supposed to support Anduril: the more money is wasted on Ukraine because of their tech which gives them better ability to defend themselves, the poorer we are… so yeah…

This is the key for me.
Of course I understand the requirement for weapons in the current age.

However Nix itself doesn’t need to fully tied into their production.
Everybody can use it (and any other Free Software project) for whatever they want but we don’t have to align ourselves with those companies or enable them any further than providing a tool the can (mis-)use.

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I think people broadly agree with this statement, in that people believe that Nix/NixOS shouldn’t be beholden to the wants or needs of Anduril, but that it means different things to different people.

There seems to be base disagreement on what that would look like, whether or how it is happening, what are reasonable guardrails to stop ${whatever_discussant_believes_that_looks_like}, and on the relative importance of outcome on this particular decision axis (Anduril) vs. the mechanisms used to get there that effectively create precedent with resultant outcomes on the shape of future community-led processes.

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You pointed it out brilliantly.

Also, as a last nail in the coffin, Tom not only chose to work for Anduril and hire for Anduril - he also runs for SC, a position of power, despite being called to not do that. If even in light of all else, Tom deflects criticism and ignores pleas to stop doing the obviously hostile thing - then nope, dude’s not “open to dialogue” or whatever. He has turned all opportunities down.

He’s not welcome in the community, and neither is anybody who defends him or whatabouts this conversation. Plenty of people in this thread alone.

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