Anduril's threat is existential

Anduril was the focal point of last year’s letter against MIC sponsorship, and has come up in controversy since. While individual community members have laid out their individual objections against Anduril and the MIC though, the open letter itself did not go into reasoning: it settled for opposition itself as a common denominator. To some extent, individual reasoning thereby remained unstated.

This may have hampered understanding of such reasoning among non-signees in the community, who on different occasions seem to have painted those opposition to Anduril as naive doves — a strawman I have seen argued again recently by @crertel, @mightyiam and lunduke. At this point, I consider elaborating on such reasoning (to add to existing angles on MIC, autonomous weapons or Thiel) as more pressing. To that end, I would argue:

The threat Anduril contributes to is existential (and not over some p(doom)):

  1. Climate change poses an existential problem of planetary proportions. (ICJ)
  2. We are on our way to hitting climate tipping points. (NYTimes, paraphrased)
  3. US interventions have served to spread neoliberal policy. (NSA whistleblower John Perkins, paraphrased)
  4. Capitalism can’t solve climate change. (Time magazine)
  5. US federal stance on climate change has nevertheless appeared undeterred.
  6. The US has invaded or been militarily involved with almost every country on earth.
  7. Such interventions have owed to US military dominance, topping the rest of the world’s in fire power, budget and military bases.
  8. Anduril builds weapons for American dominance. (X: Anduril founder Palmer Luckey)
  9. Anduril has the funding, partnerships, technical foundations, and the political goodwill to be well-positioned to pursue this end.
  10. In spite of international and popular opposition to their use, Anduril’s weapons are autonomous, potentially prolonging such military dominance, if not aggravating escalation.

Combining these: the threat posed by US imperial domination, which Anduril materially contributes to, is existential in the face of climate change. (While I’m aware that may be a privileged argument to make amid a genocide, I also realize this type of argument may unfortunately also be more likely to resonate with those dismissing MIC critiques as dove-ish than the moral argument.)

Now, whereas our software licenses are open-source, community policies can and do have an impact.

Even putting aside employer leverage though, those swayed by the dominant war hawk rhetoric may sympathize with MIC perspectives regardless of employment. Instead, I worry our democratic foundations are unstable, giving room for take-overs of the SC even if only a minority of our community supported this.

I don’t necessarily expect to sway people, and realize my title is vulnerable to framing, while moderation may be stricter currently, given capacity. That said, I hope the sources here may somewhat build my case in a way at least intelligible to those of different convictions.

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On the military + climate change theme: The US military’s carbon footprint is mind-bogglingly big. Here’s how they could cut it | BBC Science Focus Magazine

The US military is the largest emitter of greenhouse gases of any institution on Earth, generating an estimated 636 million metric tons of CO₂ equivalent (a standardised measure of greenhouse gas emissions) between 2010 and 2019.

If it were a country, this would make the US military rank 47th globally in emissions, ahead of nations like Sweden and Portugal.

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Thank you for taking the time to share such a detailed perspective. I won’t pretend to debate these topics in depth as they go far beyond my field of expertise. As someone from this community once told me not so long ago, I don’t have a background in social and human sciences (one of the reason why I should not apply for SC), but in IT. I am not an expert in these matters and I do not claim to be, so I will refrain from commenting on them directly.

However, I believe there is a fundamental tension at the core of this debate that deserves careful acknowledgement. This connects closely to the comment I made in Leaving the Nix/NixOS community - #50 by drupol.

No matter how much energy one spends trying to persuade others or change their minds, the reality remains that if you contribute to Nix, you also contribute to the success of any organisation that uses it (oh no — avert your eyes!™) including those you may strongly oppose. Even simply taking part in these forums is, in a sense, part of that collective contribution.

Of course, you may disagree with how certain companies use Nix, but no amount of discussion will prevent them from doing so. Open source, by definition, is open to everyone whether for peaceful, commercial, or military purposes.

The recurring conflicts within our community seem, in my view, to reflect a deeper struggle: an inability to accept that uncomfortable truth. Some are torn between their ethical beliefs and the very open-source principles they have chosen to uphold.

Changing that reality is not possible. Accepting it may be difficult, but it is the only way forward. Writing longer and louder will not change it… only understanding will.

Perhaps the real existential threat to Nix is not who uses it, but our community’s inability to accept what open source truly means.

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I think you get this wrong.

As someone who signed that letter in 2024.
I’m fully aware what the four freedoms mean in practice.
However they don’t mean that one has to advertise everyone that uses the software, accept their money or even contributions at all.
I’m not saying we should do all of this, personally I’m most strongly against giving such companies a platform (NixCon sponsor, etc.) and if possible taking their money if we are in a position to do so.

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Fair point ! I was speaking about openness in the broader philosophical sense, but I agree that this does not prevent the community from making ethical decisions about sponsorship or visibility.

Yes, I signed the letter like many others, and if I were to do it again, I probably would not. That does not mean I support that company in any way: it’s just that I no longer think I should take a stance on something that is not entirely black or white.

It goes without saying that I wish what we do in Nix would never be used by any hostile entity. But the reality is that we simply do not know who is using it, or for what purpose. There are probably far worse entities out there (ones we know nothing about) using what we build for even worse ends.

Choosing who to accept sponsorship or collaboration from is indeed a separate, community-level decision, and I do not have a strong opinion on that. I am open to hearing different perspectives. Before joining this project, I worked on large open-source projects that were sponsored by companies with far more questionable reputations (which I did not realise at the time!), and it never had any real impact on the project’s direction. Morally speaking it is hard to admit for me, but to be honest it was actually beneficial to have prolific contributors from those organisations.

Now, we could also question what “visibility” actually means in practice. Should we prevent such companies (and how do we even define them?) from participating in the project? From contributing back? These boundaries are not clearly defined at the moment and perhaps that’s a discussion worth having at some point.

My point here was more about the underlying reality that once software is released under an open-source licence, we lose control over how it is used, regardless of who we choose to highlight or collaborate with publicly… yeah, the 4 freedoms. That is where, in my view, the real tension lies: between moral conviction and the technical openness that defines our work.

I think we actually agree more than it may seem: your focus is on governance and association, while mine is on the broader consequence of openness itself and what it really implies.

I hope we can keep discussing these questions in good faith. Not to win an argument, but to understand each other and strengthen the project we all care about.

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I’m never quite sure what to make of it when people put forward this kind of stance.

Yes, an open source community can’t control who uses the software they create. Obviously.

I strongly suspect that to be the case even if large, powerful organizations like Anduril don’t uphold the freedoms they are obligated to by the license the software comes with.

We are not talking about just any company though. Anduril is actively extending its influence and its values are in direct conflict with Nix’s stated values.

We are talking about a billion dollar military company that has the ear of the increasingly autocratic government of the country that spends more than double what the rest of the world spends on its military.

Nix has trouble covering its S3 bills.

The mere fact that Nix isn’t absolutely swimming in no-strings-attached money donated by Anduril shows us that they obviously are only in it for themselves. Not that there should have been any doubt about that.

What we have some control over is what power we give this company in our official community spaces. For now, at least, as two thirds one third of the remaining SC are Anduril employees.

It feels like the underlying question is whether one should put up any resistance at all if the situation isn’t (to some) completely black and white and success guaranteed.

The answer to me is obviously yes. Even if defeat was guaranteed, I’d rather this community tried to fight being overtaken by such an obviously bad actor than to willingly accede.

They’re used to taking what they want because they’re strong and they think that’s how it should be.

I disagree.

Edit: I was wrong in thinking that there were two Anduril employees on the SC. I apologize and thank @vcunat for correcting me.

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citation of reliable sources, please

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And either way, we’re now voting for 5 of the 7 seats in the SC, so don’t post this kind of doomsday claims.

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Both fair points — I’m also not sure who the second person would be — but I wouldn’t personally say a call to vote against any potential takeover is necessarily doomsaying.

Yes, it will probably not happen this year, but if we don’t vote for candidates who want to build safeguards against that, it might eventually happen. And as such a call like that is a good thing — we should care more about our self-sovereignty as a community.

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Sure, we have elections and things are highly political, so I recognize that political campaigns, political activism and such are… unavoidable and I do count this whole thread into it.

I’d really prefer to have separate category on discourse for this kind of thing. And please, everyone, try not getting too emotional also try to support claims with hard facts.

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Given that:

  • There is a topic to discuss in general, and there is its specific implications in the context of the election
  • There has in fact been a question about this in the Candidate Q&A format (with some carefully written answers)
  • EC and mod team have made a joint request to keep specifically campaigning to the Q&A format

could we please have a discussions of what guardrails seem feasible/desirable to various people here, and keep clear of making it a campaigning thread about third party interpretation of statements by candidates?

Also, the natural interpretation of «remaining SC» is SC after subtracting vacant seats, which includes 6 people (even if 3 of them are currently against actually making any SC decisions). I remind people that even if one more person resigns, a majority decision will still be counted from the full size of 7 seats. (Removal of candidates can be done by a supermajority of remaining SC, so with two vacant seats 4 people are enough for candidate removal, but I would not expect it to happen anyway)

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I personally don’t have a problem with them contributing back as long as it improves the project as a whole and their contributors are following the community guidelines.
But this is IMO just a normal problem for free software projects as not all the technical interests are 100% aligned.

As for taking money this is very it gets muddy for me.
One could argue that it is okay to take money as long as it doesn’t come with any strings attached.
Then at least they are doing some good and have (probably slightly) less money to do stupid things.
On the other hand one probably is never fully independent from a donor.
I personally would probably first make sure that the project is financially stable and then start to cut problematic money sources.

What I wouldn’t do is allowing problematic companies to advertise at community events and on project related platforms (website, videos, etc.)

However these are just my thoughts.
A lot of this falls into the category “I know it when I see it”.

That is something I expected long ago when I first learned about FOSS licenses.
Back then I actually looked into a licenses that would restrict who can use the stuff that I wrote.
I was quite sad to learn that those things aren’t possible at the same time and chose FOSS licenses at the time.

I had a similar experience recently.
In Switzerland there is an ongoing petition to make civil service mandatory for everyone who lives here (which I think is a good idea).
Unfortunately I had to learn that this is something that most likely isn’t compatible with the declaration of human rights which I think is one of the most important things humanity has achieved.
Quite a dilemma now :slight_smile:

Edit: Fixing a typo

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Then you should stop speaking on this because you have nothing to add. It is not a good faith response to start “debate-broing” copyright licenses on issues of community governance.

Like what makes you feel you have the right to bring up copyright law as a way to silence people’s concern on what their community which prides itself on being diverse is associating with?

Because obviously you don’t actually want a resolution if you’re bringing up irrelevant legal statues.

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I think you may have misunderstood my intent. I am not trying to silence anyone or reduce this to a question of copyright law. My point was simply about the inherent nature of open-source licences: once code is released freely, we can’t fully control how it’s used.

That doesn’t mean I dismiss community concerns or ethical discussions… quite the opposite actually. I believe these conversations are necessary, but it also helps to recognise the limits of what we can actually control, so that our energy goes toward the parts we can influence… like governance, culture, and sponsorship choices.

I hope you’ll trust my good will here. I am not a lawyer, I do not want to become one, and I am definitely not trying to sound like one.

I am really just here to exchange views, not to win arguments.

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This was understood more than 40 years ago when the GNU manifesto was published. This is a given that we all implicitly accept. In fact, it’s newsworthy when a project tries to play tricks with copyright law and introduce additional clauses that make a previously libre project proprietary.

This is nowhere near the issue that’s being discussed with Anduril. People only bring up copyright to derail the conversation.

The conversation never steered out of that. There is no rule that someone who is un-elected from the SC is suddenly barred from submitting patches nor was anyone advocating for one (except in the minds of the Anduril defenders because they don’t have any other arguments)

If that’s the case then elaborate on this:

Like as an aside and brought up before, Anduril doesn’t really pay for the things we actually need, so I don’t know why anyone would give them the benefit of the doubt.

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I see… and I think we may be talking past each other a little. I’m not trying to re-litigate the GNU Manifesto or the history of free software. I fully agree that this has been clear for decades. Still, I sometimes get the impression that it isn’t always clear to everyone, even among contributors.

My comment wasn’t meant to “bring up copyright” as an argument, but rather to highlight that this underlying openness is part of the context that makes governance questions so difficult in practice. (e.g., should users who vehemently oppose certain companies continue to contribute to a project that those same companies also rely on ?)

As for the letter, my remark was not about giving Anduril the benefit of the doubt, I think this was clear already. It was more of a personal reflection on how taking strong public stances in morally complex areas can sometimes feel counter-productive as this is never entirely black or white. I prefer focusing on what can be changed concretely rather than what can only be condemned abstractly.

To conclude (and these will be my last words on this topic), I am not defending any company here. I am simply trying to explore how we, as a community, can handle disagreement without losing focus on the project itself.

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for what it’s worth, i myself would consider the question of focus simply a personal decision: anyone may judge for themselves in what areas they would like to contribute, be they technical or otherwise.

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And when people petitioned for a full re-election of the SC, nothing happened except backroom discussions and dealings that had to be exposed by other community members.

You keep asserting that you aren’t defending anyone or that you’re just “trying to bring up questions” but then say things like this that make it seem that you think the past conflicts were “abstract condemnations.” This is what I’m not appreciative of reading.

Let’s first start with the idea that this community isn’t a playplace for egos or a resume builder. NixOS relies on volunteer labor, and if people treat this space simultaneously as a casual hangout hobby they do after work and also the “Next Step in Human Computing That Cannot Be Stopped” then the people who suffer are the vulnerable folks donating their volunteer hours in contributing.

I think this community as a whole suffers from a distinct lack of shame or acknowledgement of its most vulnerable members, which not coincidentally is how Anduril operates. the Anduril defenders would rather assert that the “system works” rather than see that it didn’t work and actually resolve the issue. There’s more interest in piling the dirty laundry in the closet and cheering on people who do.

They yell at minorities to “vote” and then belittle them when they literally can’t get a majority and tell them that democracy has “spoken.” Or better yet “The SC has investigated ourselves and we found nothing wrong”

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America is beyond power; it acts as in a dream, as a face of God. Wherever America is, there is freedom, and wherever America is not, madness rules with chains, darkness strangles millions. Beneath her patient bombers, paradise is possible.

:smiley:

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