Anduril's threat is existential

Indeed! 65% of voters think I wasn’t the worst man for the job! I have high hopes for next election cycle. :slight_smile: Vote Boring Nix!


More seriously, though, we need to move on from this hobbyist and clubhouse mindset where it’s okay to bully people we don’t agree with (see, for example, the failed attempt to silence me here by pointing out my lack of success during the election).

We need to hold people in power accountable (as I did here) and to a higher standard of behavior and discourse. I’ve found it very telling–in my own country’s experience with Trump–that if somebody keeps staying on the attack after winning, they usually don’t have a lot of ideas for actual policies and doing the job.

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That’s not what I’m trying to do here.
I’m fine with the way our voting system works and that it ensures balanced opinions.
However I think it is important to keep in mind how it works and to explain it out if someone is confused by it.
The SC as a whole represents the community and not a single person and therefore the opinion on each member can very depending on who you are asking.

Determinate Nixd is completely optional because Determinate Nix is completely optional. Nobody has to use our distribution or our installer or FlakeHub or anything else. And if we’ve ever misrepresented Determinate Nixd being closed source, please let us know so that we can fix it immediately.

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I’m obviously not dismissing crertel just because they didn’t get voted in. I am 100% dismissing them for belittling cafkafk about how to talk and behave as a member of the SC, in the context that the community chose her, and not crertel. I found that comment outrageous and out of respect for her and out of respect for the people voting.

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I have to give you a reality check: your standard of behavior is not in any way useful or kind.

You start by asserting that you are in fact holding people in power accountable, while tone policing my communication. You then compare me to Trump, and then create the narrative that I’m on the “attack”, while you use as a hasty generalization to pivot into saying that I don’t have an idea and I’m not doing my job properly.

What you’ve essentially done in the span of a paragraph is:

  • Appeal to accountability
  • Presented yourself as being accountable
  • Implied I’m not accountable
  • Tone policed me
  • Compared me to trump
  • Shifted the narrative from one of defending against external actors to being offensive to them
  • Created a narrative that offensive behavior is indicative of lack of competence
  • Acused me of not having ideas or doing the job

This entire chain of behavior is functionally equivalent to manipulation. And you’ve yet to address any of the core claims that I’ve made in my post. In effect, you’ve effortlessly avoided having a real productive debate while taking several jabs at everyone around you, while avoiding to respond to any criticism.

But you are right, I will lead by example, and be transparent about what I think has been your most potent criticism of me so far.


You mention the temporary ban I recieved before I joined the steering committee last year, for my messages to you in the moderation chat. You were petitioning the moderators to silence “garbage” that disagreed with you, behind their back.

The exact message I sent was this.

if we actually started leaving garbage out you wouldn’t be posting here crertel

Hopefully that meets the bar for being transparent and accountable. Regarding your other criticism, if you are interested in the ideas or work I’ve done in my first week on the steering committee, feel free to ask!

EDIT: This is quoted for transparency, not as a renewed taunt. I don’t think crertel is garbage.


Now I feel I’ve reasonably addressed those.

A reminder that this thread was never about my conduct, and I do think it’s an ad hominem attack that distracts from the arguments I was making. Namely:

  • I still think that the perniciousness of Determinate Systems is systemic, and preys on rethorical slight of hand and ecosystem capture.
  • I still think that a stronger copyleft license isn’t against free and open source software principles. And that it’s inaccurate to portray all attempts at relicensing as being “politically” motivated.

If you’re interested in addressing those, do feel free to do so.

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I am under the impression that many, if not most, users are confused about the concrete licensing situation around “determinate nix” and intended to be helpful to those users by pointing out the proprietary nature of nixd. I did gain that impression from enough conversations here on discourse as well as at NixCon and several local meetups that I feel confident to say: If your intention is to be super-transparent about this, that does not yet reach those audiences.

Examples that might help to improve your public communication here:

Open source projects lists " Determinate Nix Installer" under “Open Source Project” and says it will install “nix”, but there’s no mention that it - iiuc - does install “determinate nix”, including the proprietary “nixd” now.
Maybe it could even help your brand to highlight the added value of nixd here and at the same time keep it clear to users that its “determinate nix” and not just “nix” they are getting.
The link to Determinate Systems is titled “install nix” and that phrase is repeated several times on the page.

Neither of those pages mentions nixd or non-free components in general. If I came there as a new user, after hearing about an open source tool named “nix”, nothing on those pages would have me believe I was adding proprietary software to my stack.
And with the installer, that wasn’t even the case until recently and few who land on the page will go and read all announcements on the blog first.

Note that I have ofc absolutely no objections to licensing software you write in any way you want (and I do wish you success with establishing nix in enterprise environments)!

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I know that this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I disagree. I think that crertel’s standard of behavior is definitely both useful and kind. crertel’s standard of behavior encourages us to find common ground and work together with people who we vehemently disagree with. I think that that is always a good thing, although I have a feeling that there are many people in this community who think that that is sometimes a bad thing (i.e., some people might think that finding common ground and working together with Anduril or Determinate Systems would cause more harm than good).

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Can you be bothered to refute even a single point cafkafk made? Cos you just dismissed a very structured response to double down on a point that doesn’t even make sense or is true. This is a public response to a public statement that YOU made, and you sure act too cocky for someone threatened by a position of “authority”, the threat of which is somehow missing from the response and unable to materialize.

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You seem to have put a similar question before. Maybe the subsequent answer was not satisfactory enough. I will do my best to answer this lingering question. So, let’s jump right to it. Here’s my notes on what nix-captured could look like, with some possible outcomes (replace placeholder with your preferred contractor):

1) Influence on Project Direction
An {SomeMC}-aligned Steering Committee would be sympathetic to {SomeMC}'s specific concerns. {SomeMC}'s influence on the project could be felt through direct financial dependency too. Any of these two alone would be bad enough, the two combined would be disatrous. Let’s likewise imagine what would happen if moderation of public forums got overwhelmingly favourable or ‘neutral’ towards military contractors in general. That would translate into suppressing posts prejudicial to {SomeMC}. 'Should we accept {SomeMC}‘s donations’, 'should {SomeMC}‘s sponsorship for this year’s event be accepted?’, or 'should we implement an experimental feature even it violates the RFC process, just because we can, since it happens to benefit {SomeMC}‘s particular workflow and requirements?’ Just three examples of controversial matters that would become banal with an {SomeMC}-aligned Steering Committee, a financially dependent project, all made easier by a neutered community.

2) “Open Source Washing” and Reputation
With any such stranglehold over the project, it would become easier to implement sponsorship schemes without pushback and other sorts of advertisement such as recruitment campaigns within the project’s various channels of communication. Sponsorship of public events is arguably key to {SomeMC} as it would make their presence trivial. Were that to happen regularly, it would likely change the project’s culture too. It’s not unreasonable to think that it would help improve their public image as well, to appear more collaborative, to create a façade of openness while the core business model remains centered on proprietary, secretive products (due to security restrictions, see below). These products are specifically designed to kill. Trivializing who makes them contributes to the normalization of violence and can breed moral relativism (‘we are the good guys’, ‘wars must be fought after all’, ‘collateral damage’, and so on). Needless to say, this would all come at a loss for Nix’s own reputation.

3) Impact on Independent Developers and Sustainability
{SomeMC} benefits from a large pool of maintainers doing unpaid work. Unless you have a vested interest in {SomeMC}, you are unwintingly assuring the reproducibility and reliability of {SomeMC}'s systems. Well, but isn’t that true for anyone using and contributing to Nix, including other organizations as well? Yes and no. Independent developers and smaller companies may find it hard to compete with the resources {SomeMC} has (enough at least to seduce influencial community members with six-figure salaries or sub-contracts). As it has been pointed out elsewhere, {SomeMC} directly and indirectly profits from the experience and expertise of individuals with critical knowledge of the project. How come? By scooping these individuals and redirecting their efforts to work on closed, classified systems. If you scoop enough people, you get a hold on the project through its technical aspects too. Example, {SomeMC} or a sub-contractor forces a standard through its founder (a very influential person within the community) and everyone eventually has to use it because there are no alternatives. You have effectively sucked all the oxygen. In other words, the expertise walks out of the community and into military applications.

4) Community Fragmentation
Let’s assume that community fragmentation is already here. Long-time contributors have expressed their intent to leave Nix, some have already left, while organizations that use and contribute feel the urge to find or forge ethical alternatives. Core contributors start looking at Nix on a less than favorable way and leave too. Newcomers who are just daily-driving NixOS may leave even before starting to contribute. The fact is that {SomeMC} is everywhere at this point, from public forums to governance, and this overbearing presence starts eating at Nix’s reputation, with unintended consequences such as loss of critical mass and attractiveness. (Option A) The damage is done. {SomeMC} turned out to be an existential threat indeed. All we can do now is to look back at the internal strife over {SomeMC}'s overbearing presence as telltale, and the outcome of these conflicts as textbook MIC capture of open source: extracting value, influencing governance, and redirecting community-developed expertise toward weapons systems while hiding behind ‘it’s just technical work’ rhetoric. (Option B) The internal backlash from the community is so severe that Nix subsequently implements guiding principles and other measures that specifically forbid its code to be used in weapons systems.

Let’s not forget that Anduril is a contractor for the DoD. It won a contract worth $642 million recently with the U.S. Marine Corps for anti-drone technology and a $250 million deal to provide Roadrunner-M interceptors and Pulsar electronic warfare systems. It also holds an indefinite delivery contract worth approximately $1 billion with SOCOM for counter-drone systems integration. As such, its products abide to Classification and Security Restrictions. In other words, if seeing Nix implemented within the context of weapons systems isn’t problematic for you, then let’s be coherent and demand Anduril to open up their proprietary systems. Wait, but that’s an impossibility isn’t it? They can’t, even if they wanted to. They do tap this wonderful well of continuous free labor that is software with permissible licenses. Not so fast! They give back! Look at the great work done in jetpack-nixos (which powers their autonomous systems) and the fixes they share for ‘free’. Well, these are at very best dual purpose (open and classified). Also, the community bears maintenance and reputation costs while profits accrue to Andueil.

I’m assuming that you went through the remaining of my previous post. Since you singled out only a small part, you agree with everything else, I reckon? I would love to hear your thoughts about the cost-efficiency rational, specifically against the backdrop of Anduril’s eagerness to donate and sponsor (events), advertise (jobs) in community boards, and last but not the least, the happy coincidence of having employees consistently run for the SC. Does this sound like a takeover (capture) to you? If not, what would a takover look like in this context?

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I know where you are coming from, but I’d like to make a clarification here: One salient argument for changing the license — whether or not I think it’s currently the best option — would be that it would prevent e.g. an actor such as Determinate Systems from using the Nix source code without making their changes available in return.
It is not just a valid open-source and free software option to use a less permissive license to ensure the people that fork the Nix project contribute back and respect the 4 essential freedoms, it would also be directly in the spirit of free software.

If this proposed license change for future contributions were to an AGPL or GPLv3 or similar strong copyleft, but OSI/FSF approved license, I have no qualms. In fact I think such licenses are wonderful and I use them personally.

A source available license, or one that says ABC company / field can’t use this project’s this project’s code/binaries or says specifically ABC company must use a different set of terms doesn’t meet the four essential freedoms. But it seems like you are aware of this, but others may not be.

I think there is a bit of a tendency in your post — and in general — to make it seem as if a license change would only be done because people were “upset politically”, and not a more honest representation that this would also likely be a strategic move to ensure that the primary and most powerful distribution of Nix remains completely open source and free as in both freedom and beer.

Your stance to support the four essential software freedoms gets a thumbs up from me. I just want nixOS to remain under an FSF/OSI compliant license.

It’s unclear on whether other people in this thread discussing re-licensing future contributions actually want to preserve OSI/FSF compliance, or are willing to forgo even that.

I oppose a change to a non-free license for politics, profit, or any other reason.

NixOS should remain free software.

strategic move to ensure that the primary and most powerful distribution of Nix remains completely open source and free as in both freedom and beer.

If the license remains FSF/OSI compliant, and in alignment with the four software freedoms as you mentioned in your post I have no issue.

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Yes, just like anyone else, for basically any purpose. I thought it’s the point of open-source projects, be it with copyleft or without. I certainly want NixOS to remain FLOSS. And I certainly want to avoid endless haggling about which purposes exactly are allowed and which are not. It’s a path to hell. Is there a really successful community project with this kind of license restrictions? (disallowing usage in MIC or whatever you imagine)

I believe you’re going too far in some of the arguments, like the “takeover”, but let me not go too much into details.

Long-time contributors have expressed their intent to leave Nix, some have already left, while organizations that use and contribute feel the urge to find or forge ethical alternatives.

I may be even so bold to suggest contemplating that the current “community fragmentation” which you refer to might be primarily caused by the continuous fierce fight against Anduril presence, not by the presence itself.

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Can you elaborate on that? IMHO the “community fragmentation” is caused not by individuals fighting against MIC involvement, but the community (however we define it) decided to moderate this conflict by establishing an SC. Otherwise there would a have been a clear cut, not fragmentation.

Also: “Anduril presence” sounds like they are … just present. I know we are talking about a company, which may not act in a special way. But several of their employees contribute, and one is in the SC. That’s more than “presence”.

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An Anduril employee messaged me privately asking for an explanation about this paragraph, here we go: Presence implies that no action is being taken, no involvement, just some kind existence in a context.

Referring to the most recent example of the word’s usage quoted from CNN by Merriam Webster, which is

The presence of a firearm is known to be a key risk factor of intimate partner homicide.

and from IndyStar, also quoted by Merriam Webster

The recording is, to date, the closest account of the shooter’s actions to emerge in connection with the case."

the difference shall be clear.

If Anduril as a company is the “firearm” (present in the Nix community), it’s employees are the “shooters” (acting in the community).

Also, please make clear you are employed by Anduril in your first message, without having me to look that up. Or refrain from messaging me directly, which I’d greatly appreciate, thanks.

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I wouldn’t really say that that previous answer was not satisfactory enough. I think that phaeseeKe5Ee’s answer in that other thread was pretty satisfactory because it helped me understand phaeseeKe5Ee’s perspective. That being said, it only really helped me understand one person’s perspective. I asked a similar question again in order to get a better understanding of someone else’s perspective.

How confident are you that getting an Anduril-aligned Steering Committee is on Anduril’s agenda? How confident are you that making the project financially dependent on Anduril is on Anduril’s agenda?

I think that the premise of this question is a little bit flawed. The phrase “agree with everything else” implies that there’s something that I had disagreed with. When I wrote my previous post, I wasn’t agreeing or disagreeing anything. I was asking questions in order to better understand your perspective so that I (and maybe other people who are reading this thread) could potentially change or refine my opinion on this topic.

That being said, there are some things in your previous post that I agree with, there are some things in your previous post that I disagree with, and there are many things in your previous post that I don’t really agree with or disagree with. I don’t really have a strong opinion on most of what you wrote, although I will say that I agree that many companies (including Anduril) use open-source software because it is cost effective. I will also say that agree that it is possible to fork an MIT licensed project, and then release the fork under a non-free license.

I don’t feel like I have enough evidence to come to the conclusion that a takeover is happening or is not happening. From my perspective, Anduril might be trying to take over the project or they might not be.

There’s a lot of different ways that it could look, but all of the ways that I can envision would involve somehow getting around the constitution’s COI balance requirements. I think that what you described throughout your post is a way that a takeover could possibly look like.

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U.S. defense firm Anduril has announced a joint venture with a state-run Emirati weapons conglomerate whose arms have been repeatedly linked to atrocities in Sudan, including the RSF’s genocidal campaign in Darfur, The Intercept reports.
The partnership will focus on autonomous weapons systems, including Anduril’s “Omen” drone, with the UAE set to purchase the first batch. Human rights researchers and arms experts warn the deal is deeply contradictory to Anduril’s stated mission of “defending democracy,” given UAE’s authoritarian regime and its role in supplying the RSF with drones, armored vehicles, and munitions used in mass killings, sexual violence, and forced displacement.

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if Anduril’s employees were sold on the idea of defending democracy, i would expect them to swiftly denounce this move

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the national security strategy recently published by the white house mentions:

Targeted deployments to secure the border and defeat cartels, including where necessary the use of lethal force to replace the failed law enforcement-only strategy of the last several decades

‘secur[ing] the border’ by ‘lethal force’ over a ‘failed law enforcement-only strategy’ sounds a lot like extrajudicial execution of civilians - and if anything, recent precedent there does not make this sound like the document is bluffing.

Anduril might not necessarily pull the trigger (or even provide the arms, maybe) - but given their proximity to the US admin, they should be well aware what they’re getting into here, if they did not want civilian deaths on their hands, be it directly or indirectly.

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The silence is deafening. Democracy is not and was never the goal. It’s just a buzzword which is friendlier to the masses than “imperial domination”.

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