Nix Project / Community Health?

I’m a Nixos user and as such pretty happy. I just recently got aware of all the drama that has been going on and that deeply disturbs me.

As an outsider, I cannot easily judge who is right or wrong, but that’s how things are in life all the time, so I have to make up my mind based on the information that is available to me, and I tend to do that carefully.

Like most everybody, I have moral, political and social convictions that grew over the years and I am comfortable with mine. That confidence is fed by the observation that I have friends with vastly diverging ideas and convictions and I would defend them as decent people, even though I strongly believe their convictions are garbage.

When I read through threads and look at which people get banned, who is leaving and who stays, this does not make a good impression.

I am a lefty, I believe in core values like justice, fairness, freedom, security. That makes me a strange mix of conservative and progressive. I would prefer not to mix politics with my hobbies or my job (the tech world), but politics has a tendency to interfere with my personal reality.

I am German and in my generation, we were shown Holocaust videos in school. Most Germans of my generation do not like, tolerate or sympathize with Nazis. Contemporary generations apparently are more receptive to them, 20+ percent of voters have no issue to the closest you can get to that ideology in the political sphere. 45+% of Americans see that similarly. But are these actually Nazis? They could very well be. But I would not make such categorizations lightly. Calling somebody a Nazi has to have more substance than just them being on the other side of the political spectrum.

The SC vs. Moderation-Team drama was irritating to me. Their democratic argument has a lot of weight that does not seem to be acknowledged. I often saw requests for accountability of the moderation team being denied by those who disagree with them (that’s in the nature of the setting). To me, an institutional conflict (checks and balances) seems to be a just as natural consequence.

OSS projects are strange beasts. They have users, contributors and some kind of governance body. Nix is not the benevolent dictator model, it’s not a corporate appendix and maybe not quite yet democratic. To me it looks like the person who could (but didn’t want) to have the dictator job is gone. Democracy is still in its infancy. The moderator team looks quite oligarchical and to be operating under their self defined model. There seems to be no applicable law (CoC).

I am a lefty even in my European cultural context. For American standards, that makes me a radical, I guess. But I find myself increasingly adopting right-wing talking points. That’s not because my morals decay or because I start developing racial, sexual or gender phobia in my old age. My values are pretty solid the same they have been ever since I first thought about what values are and what mine should be. I don’t like to sound like my political opponents. I don’t care about races, genders or sexual habits of other people. I don’t condemn them, I don’t defend them, it’s just none of my business. I defend people whom I see threatened or abused. I believe this is my duty as decent human being, my self defined moral standard.

In a software project, all these things should be secondary issues. They come up at times and they are pushed by interest groups because software projects are interesting playing fields. But they should not become the focus points. If they do, it’s not a coincidence. Most likely it’s a conspiracy, in theory at least. It’s unhealthy.

As a user, I could safely ignore this nonsense. But the more I use Nix, the more I feel the desire and obligation to return some of the favors. Becoming a contributor is the natural next evolution.

Right now, I want nothing to do with the Nix project, because it really feels like the wrong side is winning. And this is not a left/right polarization, it’s more like a mafia thing, at least as I perceive it. Am I wrong?

I saw the account of Joe Ringer on YT. That’s of course only one side of a conflict. It’s a typical account however. I saw many of them presented by the loosing side of a conflict in which at least one side did not allow for a compromise. I cannot tell for certain if what convinces me to see merit in the account is actually the truth. This is the uncertainty we outsiders have to live with.

But this looks very decisively like an accurate account. The reason for that is that the other side controls the communication. The court of public opinion has no judges, juries or procedures. But in this case, it does not even have a neutral ground. It’s hard to believe in value driven fairness, if one side can win by definition, banning the other. That’s how the rule of law works in Russia.

It’s 2025 now. There is a war in Europe again. More than a Million died there, that’s more corpses than Americans dying in WW2. I did not expect this to happen, when Gorbachev and Reagan agreed to end the cold war (in a manner of speaking). I did not expect all the OSS companies to go evil with such consistency. I did not expect a company with the slogan “don’t be evil” to become what it is today. All of the things I believed were real progress since the time I learned about in school seem to dissolve.

Should a project like Nix not be better than this large scale nonsense? Are we engineers not naturally grounded in a mostly rational result oriented mind set? How can it be acceptable that one project member tells another they have no right to speak? Not because of anything concrete they said, just because, well no reason given.

I hear arguments like “a certain minority cannot feel safe if […]”. But as a consequence, another minority (each affected individual) no longer needs to feel safe in order to shift the favor. Is this not obvious madness? Values, rights and obligations are often in conflict to each other. That’s not a defect, it’s just reality. These conflicts need to be resolved in a way that is acceptable to everybody who is willing to comply with a social contract (or any kind to be defined). Those who cannot comply with that, belong to a different society. The question who gets to define the contract and who enforces it is essential for any project. It’s not as much fun as hacking. It should not be necessary to create a legislation, we all learn the rules in kinder garden. Or that’s how it was when I went there as a toddler.

I expect this post to be moderated. It’s probably just steering up more bad blood. I almost certainly will annoy certain people. But rereading what I wrote, I believe nothing I said should be controversial. Even if my evaluation of who is right and wrong would be completely wrong and I bet on the wrong horse, I admitted from the very beginning that I cannot really know. This should be a valuable contribution, because if what I say has merit, Nixos should change. The situation is not sustainable, it’s not healthy, it’s not civilized. Maybe it’s changing already and I just don’t see it, but it really doesn’t look good.

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We don’t really have a moderation team right now, since A statement from members of the moderation team. One person stuck around to ‘hold the fort’ and it seems one other now joined them (or also remained, I’m not sure about the exact history), but it seems weird to attribute particular characteristics to “the moderator team” at this point.

I don’t think that particular case is “typical” at all, and I’m not sure it’s worth getting into it.

I’m afraid some of the long threads on this forum show us that this is not the case - or perhaps, that being ‘rational result-oriented’ is not necessarily a succesful approach to arrive at a harmonious community. I suspect part of the problem with “rational result-oriented” is that it sounds great until you try to apply it to a particular situation - and then it turns out all participants in the conflict consider themselves to be the “rational result-oriented” ones and you’ve achieved nothing. This reminds me of “no politics”: that also sounds great in theory, but when we had to decide whether or not to accept Anduril as a conference sponsor, some felt strongly that we shouldn’t deny them the chance to sponsor because that would be “polical”, while others felt strongly that we should deny them the chance to sponsor because accepting them would be “political”.

To be honest, it’s not clear to me what you think should change. You seem to say a moderation team is important, but that “the current team” (which tbh barely exists) is somehow not good? Can you be more specific in what you think should change?

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I believe this was really tough for moderators. I find it really sad, as I had collaborated with Jon in the years before these kinds of politics got discussed a lot, and I didn’t see any issues. (e.g. both me and him were release managers at some points) He has contributed quite significantly to nixpkgs, I’d say.

But… when Jon got a new chance after suspension, and instead of “laying low”, he was again painting a target on his back, I just couldn’t defend him anymore. I don’t think all blame can be put on him, but still, I respect this resolution in the end. (I expect that higher level of details can be found somewhere.)

I really hope that things won’t be getting that far anymore, and we will be able to better focus on collaboration on goals that we have in common, like packaging and stuff.

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Thank you for replying at this level of detail!

This is not transparent to me. For me the timeline is flat, things happen when I first read about it. That’s one of the problems of an outside perspective. I’m coming back to this aspect in a bit (I hope).

I meant being typical outside of the Nixos ecosphere scope. These kinds of post-mortem accounts seem to become a stylistic feature of many open source projects. If this really is a pattern, I think it’s very much worth getting into it, even if it probably feels like analyzing a marriage after a divorce.

The scientific method itself works, even with incomplete knowledge and mistakes. That does not mean that you can trust a news headline starting with “scientists found that …” or that a q.e.d behind a claim is actually a proof. Likewise, putting equality into law is not a guarantee for justice being applied in the streets. Resolving non-trivial conflicts well is always difficult, frustrating and requires a lot of dedication.

If a society is complex enough (Nixos community here), you probably need some kind of executive. This gets you immediately into the realm of politics - it literally is politics. Just having an executive is not the solution, it has to be a functional one. By that I mean not only that it operates fairly, but also that it’s widely accepted and respected.

If we were random people, nobody wanted to engage in such an endeavor. It’s not fun. But we have a shared goal, Nixos. There are always people you don’t like or worse.

I believe that the real problem happens if things get resolved by personal credibility and not the merit of the argument. This seems to be a common scheme, both in “real” politics and software projects suffering this particular kind of drama. I don’t believe that this is the nature of projects or societies, it’s a particular structure that projects and societies evolve into if this is not prevented from happening.

I can’t say it’s clear to me either, I have some ideas but no confidence that they would work.

I would insist - as a general rule - that the one making a claim has the burden of proof for that claim. If there is no evidence, claims have to be made softly enough to distinguish them from statements of fact. This is mostly a formality, but it creates a clear boundary where misbehavior can be isolated. It also makes it harder to attack people personally and be “in the right” at the same time.

If the executive (moderators) is at odds with people, they should not have the luxury to control the meta communication about the conflict. You can’t be judge and party to the conflict at the same time. This should be obvious.

I don’t know the current (or not so current) team well enough to have an opinion about it. But if the moderation is party to a conflict, it is obviously not acting in it capacity as moderation team. God knows who is at fault in any particular conflict, but if the moderation is not neutral, it’s not moderation. I mean that on a very impersonal and systematic level. People who managed to get into such positions in a prestigious project such as this are very likely to be competent and not idiots. Statistically speaking. But it doesn’t take a lot to see reasonable people operating on hormones. I do that a lot.

There is this example from Jon’s account, where he was told to fuck off. I don’t know if the account was complete or whether I saw enough of the context to understand it, but if this is acceptable communication, it’s getting really hard to find reasons to ban people for anything less than illegal actions. There must be a baseline of justice, fairness and civility.

What I say here is based on my professional experience on the job but actually much more so on my experience as a dad facing two bickering kids arguing with each other. I enjoy this role to some extend, but it’s at the same time incredibly frustrating and repetitive. Loving my kids makes this much easier. I don’t know if principles of fairness can be applied in a scenario where you despise the subjects. But that’s the job of moderation. I have nothing but admiration for people fulfilling this role. It’s a tough one.

You knowing people and events makes my views rather shallow. But nevertheless, my impression is that at the point where Jon got banned or even before that, mistakes where made that never got resolved. That would explain why “laying low” might not have been an option for Jon.

I don’t want to defend a guy I don’t know regarding circumstance I don’t know. But there are some items in his account that would drive me really mad if I would experience them in a manner similar to what he described.

The problem is of course that I argue based on his account and that might be one-sided or plain wrong. I can’t know. But I did not see any public arguments disqualifying his account.

Accountability is important. If you (the project, the moderation team) is asked why this guy was banned, then the answer must be a clear and objective record. They violated rule X (+quote). Why was the guy telling him to fuck off not banned requires an equally clear record that must state that telling people to shut their mouth is ok.

Without this accountability, things can never really settle, because animosities do not go away with time. Accountants are the heroes nobody really likes. Every company and every project needs some of them.

There I read this:

I’m not a lawyer, but this statement looks really bad to me.

What is the basis on which powers are distributed between SC and moderation team? It’s not the constitution, as stated explicitly. What then?

What is the argument that the moderation team has sovereignty in the scope of their claim? Precedent? Is this a good argument? They didn’t make it in the resignation letter. They made none.

If they claim the SC is overreaching, they have to explain why controlling the moderation team is NOT the responsibility of the steering committee and if so, what would be the controlling entity? The moderation team itself? That is autocracy in the most narrow literal sense.

Moderation is an executive function, just like the police. I read a comment of a moderator somewhere, that this is at odds with this view, they see themselves as para medics.

I love this view. But paramedics do not imprison or deport patients, they drive them to the hospital. A ban is the equivalent to a deportation with prejudice.

I don’t mean to say that these are the bad guys, I really don’t know. But they don’t do a particularly good job at making a defendable argument.

What are these misunderstandings, what are the requirements of moderation and even more importantly, what are their goals? None of that has been made explicit.

What follows is a long and very explicit list of failures of the SC. But for these failings to be recognized as failures, there is no objective basis. You had to believe that the moderation team understands the community better, that they know that if their requirements are met they would be successful and what success means in this context.

That is a lot of trust that is presumed here and no transparency at all.

This echoes the critique that banned delinquents voiced towards the moderation team. Where is the double standard coming from? The question whether the SC has the authority to control the moderation team has not been evaluated. This statement is based on a presumption alone. And here precedent is not relevant (moderation team does not need to justify their actions).

Interesting, “safe” and “constructive”. What does that actually mean? In which way is a conflict in public forums unsafe? I would say that doxing is the most critical thread to personal safety. But that didn’t seem to have been a problem. Constructive sounds good, but what is being constructed? A better Nixos? A better team spirit? A better world? People constructed a Third Reich and that was not a good thing. Constructiveness is a means to an end, not a value in itself.

So did the moderation team succeed in demonstrating their superiority over the SC in terms of a common goal? Harmony and consensus is not on the menu. Did they remove the right people eliminating disturbances? Maybe, that’s up to the community to decide. Did they succeed to preserve the good reputation of the Nixos project? I leave that one open.

This does not fit my perception of the situation at all. The moderation team got criticized for suppressing communication (maybe rightly so), not for enabling them. The concerns over biases was not about promotion campaigns but about bans, if I got that right. If this statement is about the community overall and not the moderation team, then I cannot see the drama as progress. Conflicts appear in the tech news, when people get banned, not when they are arguing. Nobody really cares for arguments unless there is some hollywood action and drama attached to them.

This statement has a bit of an orwellian feel to it.

Okay, that’s a reasonable demand, even though the conventional checks for elected positions are the elections. What are the check and balances in place for the moderation team? Why is this not on the menu?

That sounds ominous!

That again sounds great, but the scope as defined earlier is strangely narrow. Why no checks and balances for all relevant powers? Why only the SC? Why should moderation of all powers be the one that is beyond checks? Because of their long experience and better judgement? Seriously? Is this the argument made here?

TBH I’m starting to regret engaging in this thread - it feels like it’s going to get long without going anywhere. While there could be some value in dissecting events from the past, you’re missing a lot of context, and with each post instead of further focusing on any particular point, you seem to pull in more events from the past that you’re also missing context about.

I linked to A statement from members of the moderation team to explain it doesn’t make too much sense to talk about “the moderation team” because that’s been different groups of people at different times, and right now it’s even a stretch to call it a “group”. In theory I could see a productive conversation about the relationship a future moderation team could/should have with the SC, but the way this thread has been going it’s just picking apart the past and on track to repeat half of that 100+ thread and more - I don’t see that leading anywhere. Yes, learning from the past is useful, but this is not that.

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Granted, you’re asking about the state of affairs from an admitted place of partial ignorance, so I can understand why you posted here. That said, it does seem a bit absurd (in my opinion) to seek answers in a space where dissenting voices have either long since been banned or, at best, stay silent out of fear of the obvious and consistently applied reprisals.

If you genuinely want a more realistic gauge of the health of the Nix ecosystem, I’d suggest asking in some of the other projects and communities that have emerged alongside it. Many of them are far more accommodating of differing opinions, at least that’s been my experience, and you’ll likely get a broader, less filtered perspective.

Come one, that sounds way worse than it really is. We even have an Anduril employee in the Steering Committee.

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The recent moderation teams all seem to have been pretty bad at actually saying in public that some things need to be stopped for some time, or at al. In any form at all. Apparently they believe that public rule setting is not how things should be done. Jon managed to be involved in multiple of the very few cases when the mod team managed to actually say something out loud about a very specific thread, and continued to try to have the discussion (only slightly impeded by the other side going away) after the others did heed the mod request to shut down the specific discussion.

He was even initially right on the object level more than zero times out of those, in my opinion, but the discussion was indeed definitely going nowhere good, and explicitly shutting it down was a reasonable decision by mod team.

And I agree that private warnings without public summaries (and without any attempts at updating the CoC to also spell out whatever are locally specific issues clearly, and without any other kind of public norm setting), which apparently happened for some of the cases Jon cites, do not seem to have been the right choice. Still, Jon repeatedly ignored the rare cases of mod team reaching for the other tools in a uniform way.

Repeatedly ignoring reasonable mod team requests gets people who pay attention more understanding of banning.

Even though Jon’s technical work was very useful to the project.

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You mean the one that was blasted for like 6 weeks after they found out? I’m sure it doesn’t feel so bad when your comfortably in the majority and you banish anyone with a mind to examine, but to someone like me who refuses to give up that right, it’s far worse than you acknowledge.

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Yeah, because that’s an undeclared conflict of interest and they are an elected official. The SC themselves, including the person in question, said not communicating this was a fuckup.

… the SC then continued to put their feet in their mouths, and had an internal squabble that spilled into public discourse. The “blasting” at that point wasn’t about the initial incident as much as it was about the SC being broken. Obviously it’ll sound bad if you remove all that context.

Anyway, the person in question hasn’t been banned or otherwise silenced; this has nothing to do with banning dissenting voices - you’re moving goalposts.

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You’re not alone in feeling this way. You are missing a lot of context (presumably), but that’s just as likely because there’s so much context (and so much ink spilled)–there are some documents out there floating around that give various timelines, and some of them are even accurate. That lack of context also doesn’t preclude you from being correct in what seems to be your concerns about certain things…you don’t have to know exactly what spoiled which spoiled apple that made it into the pie to say “huh, this tastes funny”.

The thing is, it’s incredibly unlikely anytime soon to get definitive or satisfactory answers about any of this stuff, because the actual information is so fragmented. There’s been deliberate lying and accidental misrepresentation by multiple factions about what’s gone on (consider srid, jringer, and the various open letters and ragequit threads all reporting the same events very differently), and even for the folks who do know what’s going on there’s very little profit in rehashing history again.

There are other useful places to spend one’s dwindling lifeforce than picking at old wounds:

  • We’ve got the 25.11 release coming out soon (it’s in beta now!) and I’m sure they’d appreciate any help you can spare to get towards zero Hydra failures.
  • The community survey is still going, and your datapoints and input would certainly be of value.
  • The marketing team (in my experience) usually is appreciative of any PRs that tackle outstanding issues in the homepage repo.
  • There’s no shortage of documentation improvements one can make to the core Nix repo.

Pretty much of any of those things is going to benefit you and the ecosystem more than trying to run this stuff down in public. Choose life. :slight_smile:

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Who is “you”? There is no we to address here. @TLATER is an absolute stalwart of the forum, invests an enormous amount of work in answering questions and educating new comers and not in too much else.

You are achieving little with this post or discussion. I think @crertel’s list of positive things to do is pretty great. It’s late here so I think I will miss the ZHF deadline before tomorrow, but honestly the next time I see one of these “community” concern posts before I type out anything I’m going to try to solve a build problem first.

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It is concievable that many (actually most in my experience) folks don’t actually concern themself with political positioning every waking moment of every day, and perhaps he just didn’t think about it up front while he was, you know, preparing for a new job?

Except that as a member of the steering comittee he definitely should have concerned himself with politics. The SC is a political body no matter how you slice it.

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