Zulip for governance discussions

Contribution: Mic92 (Jörg Thalheim) · GitHub
Email: joerg@thalheim.io


For GitHub contributions, please use this GitHub issue instead!

All requests above have been addressed, everybody was invited :slight_smile:


I’m not quite sure how low the bar is, but I thought I might as well try and apply. Feel free to use me as an example if you reject me. Be warned, however, I do expect my self-sacrifice to be regarded as evidence for the discussion prior to the next constitutional assembly :wink:

Contribution: I’ve been a semi-active member on this Discourse for ~3 years. (Mostly out of self-interest). I have also opened a few small issues on GitHub, but I have similar doubts there, so I thought I might as well post here first. I have no other qualifications to really speak of.

Email: smkuehnhold@gmail.com


I originally intended to ask a related question on the other thread first before applying, but that thread seems to have been temporarily closed. It was exactly the question I posted (and deleted) here by mistake.

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That seems fine to me, invited!


Contribution: Regular package maintenance
Contribution: Principal maintainer of nixvim

Email: gaetan@glepage.com


@glepage Love nixvim, such a good contribution.

Thanks :+1:

I’m posting a request here as well as I haven’t made any PRs myself, so understand if I don’t qualify…

Contribution: This discourse discussion
Email: dedguy21@gmail.com

…and I’m a real person you can check my GitHub

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@glepage @SeineEloquenz Since your contributions were on GitHub, it would’ve been better to post them in Request for a Zulip account for governance discussion · Issue #143 · NixOS/foundation · GitHub, but it’s fine and you’ve been invited!

@dedguy21 I’m afraid that contribution doesn’t really clear the bar, sorry!

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@Infinisil thanks for the consideration anyway appreciate it. And that you have kept the instance open for anyone to read, just not actively participate, is good enough for me. Appreciate it :+1:


Contribution: Pull requests · NixOS/nixpkgs · GitHub
Email: cameronleslie@gmail.com

1 Like

Contribution: https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/tiar2y/thunderbolt_usb_audio_interface_crackling/
Email: 102bend2y@mozmail.com

@poplar4039 I’m afraid that contribution doesn’t clear the bar, sorry!

@cbleslie invited! (also seen your application on GitHub)

Fair enough! Thanks for considering.

Contribution: Update the packaged Bazel to 0.3.2, and also make it actually work. by IreneKnapp · Pull Request #19380 · NixOS/nixpkgs · GitHub
Email: ireneista@irenes.space

@Irene invited, should’ve been on github, but :person_shrugging:

I read in the recent announcement that

All future updates will come from the assembly instead, which will be posted to the new assembly announcements Zulip stream

which tracks what was announced here, but I wonder if, for something like announcements, we could at least cross-post here in Discourse, if not outright use Discourse exclusively. I find Zulip’s web interface subpar for announcements, both on desktop and even more on mobile. Plus we already do all sorts of announcements here. I understand the reasoning behind using Zulip for governance discussion, much less so for announcements.


i dont know where else to post, but the Zulip instance is running wild.

I’m pinging everyone from the new assembly and someone from the board as representative. Something has to change.


It was said the Zulip instance is only for governance discussion and that there will be stricter rules to ensure a fruitful engagement.

Instead there is meme-ing, mocking and degrading on parts of the community.

You have a former discourse moderator on there meme-ing about a trained weasel army. How is this helpful and not deemed as detrimental to the discussion? He of all people should know better. There are more instances of this kind of behavior from different users. i picked this as latest and clearest example of this behavior.

There are even streams/ topics on zulip just to degrade and hate on a part of the community under the disguise of trademark talk. Reddit might not be an offical part of the community, but it is a part of the community. Its over 20.000 people that got just all thrown into one pot and called a cesspit:

For example, the NixOS subreddit is a notorious cesspit of conspiracy theories, misinformation, and troll activity.

This gets topped of by another user saying this:

reddit is a toxic shithole, this shouldn’t be surprising.I am sorry that they seemed to have latched on to you Nat. All of it is just sowing division, very sad.

How does any of this quantify as governance discussions? For me it looks like Derogatory Language and Disruptive behavior.

To set this into context, the user in question is disliked by the subreddit because he displays the same derogatory language on the subreddit against the subreddit and was always antagonistic. He has deleted his comments and account since yesterday. So tracing and showing all his antagonistic comments is difficult.

On the Zulip instance he says its a campaign of harassment against him.

This is not true.
For example someone posted the jitsi call from this user, this post got downvoted, low engagement in the comments and they are against this type of posting. A harrasment campaign and Brigading from the subreddit wouldnt create such a negative reaction. Check the post and see that people are not fond of this. He twists the narrativ and uses every opportunity to degrade the people on the subreddit.

Mods and some Assembly members partake in this actions and seem to green-light it.
In this derailed topic you find : Infinisil, endocrimes, 7c6f434c and hexa.
Users that are part of the moderation or the assembly should not partake in such dishonest and degrading topics. It boggles my mind how nobody said:" enough, this is not the right place and not the right way". People have been banned for less, here on discourse and on Zulip. There was no moderation action taken against anyone in this topic.

Hexa even made claims of brigading, which doesnt make sense given that only green-lit contributors can join the Zulip. As a moderator he is adding fuel to the fire. While his job is to stop the fire.

Endocrimes sees that its getting heated but wont take moderation action because they were part of it. You cant be actively be part of this fire, attaching your name to it and then turn an blind eye. If youre a moderator and you post in there without speaking up against it, you are indirectly giving your okay. endocrimes asks persons to step away from this, after all the damage has happend, but no actions were taken.

You two are moderators, you know better, this whole topic should have been closed and deleted. There are already complains about one sided moderation. No actions on topics like this enforce such views, instead of dismantling them and showing the community a fair moderation.

The community is already in turmoil. The Zulip instance and the assembly were created so that the community can find back together and thrive. This cant happen if the zulip is used to degrade parts of the community and assembly members and moderators partake in this or look the other way. Please dont let the community drift apart further through such actions.

There was enough fighting, this is the time to come to the table and create a environment for a healthy community that works together and not against each other.


I can’t believe reddit users posted a link to try and brigade a meeting :frowning:


The topic was linked on the subreddit in an obvious effort to spur the people there to action. As such we have seen ~15 downvotes of the top post, with few of these people actually spelling out their position.

I’m not sure how that is not supposed to make sense.


Oh, neat! Trained weasel army isn’t part of any meme I’m aware of, so you must be crediting me with starting one! Thanks @tarrens! :blush:


While I agree with the way the topic was brought up by nat was adding fuel to the fire and deepening the rift, I don’t think it was made with the intention of causing more drama. I suggest watching this video to understand my next points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

reddit is now a place where there is a lot of complaints about the current moderation structure (which could be a logical consequence, because people which are banned from official platforms gather there). As that it generates a lot of anger which is directed at us, Nat saw this as a problem and wanted to bring this to our attention, sadly it was in a way which projected that anger back at reddit and traps us in a death spiral that way. Your post here is sadly also not helping, my throwing more fuel into the fire.

About the moderators participating in the thread:
Our rules for zulip are, that we don’t want to delete posts for transparency reasons, instead moderators try to steer the thread into a healthier direction again. So I think what you are describing as not moderating is them trying to actually solve the problem. But was we are humans this not always works out correctly.

For the future, I would like to keep those kind of discussions outside the discourse, as it is basically just voicing your anger with the other side. The assembly is working on new moderation structures and we try to improve stuff, sadly throwing angry thoughts at each other makes the problem worse and deepens the rift in the community.